In recognition of Women’s History Month, today’s special episode focuses on empowering women to achieve their professional goals. We speak with one of the leaders in advancing equity in higher education, Youlonda Copeland Morgan, Former Vice Provost for Enrollment Management at UCLA. She talks with us about the misconceptions of creating balance in your work life, but rather, bringing your family into your work. As she reaches retirement, she attributes finding meaning in your work as a key to a long, successful career.
Guests: Youlonda Copeland Morgan, Former Vice Provost for Enrollment Management at UCLA
Angel Pérez: Hello and welcome to the College Admissions Decoded Podcast, an occasional series from the National Association for College Admission Counseling, or as we call it, NACAC. NACAC is an association of more than 26,000 professionals at high schools, colleges, universities, and nonprofit organizations, as well as independent counselors who support and advise students and families through the college admission process.
I'm Angel Pérez, NACAC, CEO and the host of today's special edition.
College Admission Coded typically covers topics that are important for students and families who are considering next steps in the often confusing college admissions process. But in celebration of Women's History Month, today, I'll be speaking with a global leader in our field, Youlonda Copeland Morgan. Welcome, Youlonda.
Youlonda Copeland: Thank you, Angel. I'm glad to be here.
Angel Pérez: Yolanda Copeland Morgan is globally recognized as a visionary leader known for developing innovative transformational strategies to achieving institutional goals and moving organizations forward. She has extensive experience in organizational governance as chair of the board of several organizations serving on national and international advisory boards and leading system-wide committees for the office of the president of the University of California.
Her career extends from small, private liberal arts colleges to large public flagship universities like her beloved UCLA. She has been purposeful in building a career dedicated to achieving equity and higher education for students of all backgrounds and especially from underserved communities.
Yolanda's success in advancing equity is recognized throughout California, particularly in school districts educating first generation students. Thank you for joining me today, Yolanda, I could not be more excited about this conversation, and I do think to be transparent, people should know we've known each other for a long time. So this is a home felt conversation.
Youlonda Copeland: Indeed, it is. Thanks so much.
Angel Pérez: So Yolanda, let's dive right in. You've had an unconventional route to becoming an enrollment leader at a major flagship university, so I'm wondering if you can tell our audience how you actually got your start?
Youlonda Copeland: Well, great. It's interesting. Today we would say that it was an unconventional route, but actually the earliest enrollment officers came from very diverse backgrounds. So I think a Don Hassler who was a professor of education, right, or Bob Massa, who he did come from the admission's side. I was on the financial aid side of the house. I was the director of financial aid. I was dibbling and dabbling in admission. One of the things that early pioneers of enrollment management realized is that you couldn't talk about enrollment management without having financial aid as a part of the conversation.
And so I was in the first enrollment management institute that the college board in fact offered. And then from there I strengthened my ties on the admission's side of the house going to Harvey Met College, in fact, where I had admissions and financial aid eventually, and then went on to large national institutions like Syracuse University and then to UCLA.
So given my passion for the work that we do, I think that where I ended up was really a reflection of my passion rather than a reflection of titles that I might have had.
Angel Pérez: That's great advice, actually. Always follow your passion. You talk a little bit about how you started and you have seen a lot of changes in the profession. What would you say in your time in the field are some of the biggest changes you've seen?
Youlonda Copeland: Some of the biggest changes in the field is now we are a young profession. College presidents, certainly across higher education and other related industries, understand that there is both an art and a science to the work that we do, and the work that we do is so critical to our colleges and universities.
I think there's been some things outside of enrollment that are a part of what we do that have changed. For example, in partnerships, the erosion of federal financial aid policies, for example, has had a big impact on our ability to do our work.
The loss of federal Pell Grant purchasing power, the elimination of the Perkins Loan Program, right? Those things have had a big impact. And the partnership that we once shared in paying for college, we talked about the family contributing, the federal government and the state government and institution contributing. That partnership has really fallen apart, and we don't hear institutions or colleagues talking about that as much.
But to give one other important example of a change that has made our work very different is technology. It has been wonderfully helpful, but also there are some negatives to that. And I think as enrollment leaders, we have a responsibility to make sure that high-tech doesn't get in the way of high touch with our students and with our staff.
Angel Pérez: High-tech versus high touch. I love it. I could see that being a tweetable moment, Yolanda. One of the things that's always fascinated me about you, and you have been a great mentor to me as I've grown in my career, is that you have navigated the politics of large complex organizations. I was in awe when you went from Harvey Mudd College, a small institution in California to Syracuse University. Some of us would think that's a behemoth, and then Syracuse wasn't big enough. So you went to UCLA. And so you're navigating not just state politics, legislative politics, but politics with different presidents. And I think our audience should also know that you did serve as chair of the college board, which has its own politics in America as well. So I'm wondering what advice would you give to the next generation, particularly also for young women who are about to step into these roles and are going to be navigating extraordinary and might I say divisive politics?
Youlonda Copeland: Well, that's a great question, and one piece of advice I would give to all of my colleagues, but especially to women, is that if someone taps you to do something that you believe is totally outside of your wheelhouse, move forward, take advantage of those opportunities. There is never a point in our careers where we feel that we have arrived and we know it all. We will be constantly challenged in the work that we do, and many times we don't see, in ourselves, what other people see in us.
Now, if you just don't like the work, that's one thing. But if you're committed to enrollment or other fields in higher education, take advantage of opportunities that come your way. And that could be in the form of serving on committees, leading committees, taking on special projects, taking on interim jobs, or taking on a completely new job.
The other thing I would say that I often say to my graduate students is, "You have to build relationships of trust with key individuals in your institution or your surroundings." And that's a real tough one I think for enrollment folks or folks, wherever you might be, financial aid, mission retention area, it's really important that we get outside of our small circles and get to know the other individuals in our institutions, particularly those who are leaders and especially those who are on the faculty.
When we do that, we begin to build a larger network of support so that one, the only time that we're coming together is not around problems. When you get to know other people, then you will make an effort to spend time with them to go into their environment, learn more about them, and then there's these relationships of trust that evolve as a result of that. Which means when there is a problem, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and you are going to give me the benefit of the doubt.
And then the third thing I would say, read your professional journals. That includes newspapers, that includes the NACAC publications and the wealth of information on the NACAC website. Be on top of the conversations that are happening now because you never know when that information will serve you well.
And then lastly, I would say always have a mentor in your life. All of us need mentors. Those relationships are key because mentors help us to be honest with ourselves, and they challenge us on our thinking and on our opportunities and on our actions.
Angel Pérez: Yolanda, I know you've served as a mentor to many, many people across the profession and continue to do so. Thank you for that wonderful advice. I wonder if we can get a little personal for a minute, because Yolanda, particularly in this role as CEO of NACAC, I hear so much from young women who say, "I like the work. I don't know that I can do this and raise a family and deal with the pressure and the politics," especially as these roles are becoming more and more challenging. Now you have nurtured and raised a family while taking on huge professional roles. And so one of the misconceptions I think out there is that women cannot do this work and have some semblance of a personal life. And so I'm wondering what advice would you give to women who love the work, but say, I'm not sure I can do it?
Youlonda Copeland: I am so glad that you asked this question because women are feeling like they have to choose between their job and having a family. I think that advice that I would give to them is this. One, I just got rid of the idea of having balance in my life because balance was never achievable. This concept, if you think of scales, that things can be perfectly balanced. And what I learned to do is to integrate my life. My goal was to get all the things that were important done and not think of it as sort of equal time, or you can divide yourself one half of the day as a professional, the other as a parent, that doesn't work.
But what we can do is bring our families into our work and we can bring our work into our families. So we have to make good choices. First of all, by being aware that this notion of balance doesn't exist, but integrating our lives so that we show up at the important things that our families need us to be at, that we are available for our kids, that we share with our kids, that we show up, that we explain to them what we are doing, that we partner with them.
And then the other thing is, I think for many of us, we have to learn what my women's group call to be HOT, to be honest, open and transparent about what we're dealing with. And to recognize that men and women alike are dealing with some of the same challenges of integrating their home life and their work life together.
One of my best friends, we came to know each other through helping each other with our children at a conference.
Angel Pérez: Oh, wow.
Youlonda Copeland: Just trading off, taking all the kids hers and mine, and spending that lunchtime with them and then trading the next time. People are more understanding today than they were in the '70s when I first entered this business. And I think it's important for us as leaders to make sure that we are demonstrating that type of leadership. Where we are understanding that people are balancing a lot, especially in this demanding profession of enrollment management, and that we recognize that we need to support our teams, our staff, both in their work life and in their home life.
Angel Pérez: I love that you brought that up because one of the things that also I hear a lot about in this role is that people feel like their institutions aren't necessarily being supportive. So I'm wondering how you think institutions can do a better job of supporting women in leadership roles?
Youlonda Copeland: My first suggestion on how institutions can help women in leadership roles is to make sure that they're giving them leadership roles that are meaningful, where women can have an impact on the organizations. Too often, especially in higher education, but I'm sure corporate America is much the same. You see women leading committees or being in roles that are not as central to the organization and what the organization is trying to achieve, either in the vision or the mission. So let's give women meaningful roles, and we'll know that, for example, when we see more balance in who is the CEO of our institution, more balance in who is the CFO in our institution? So that is one way.
The second way I would say is to make sure that we are showing women the same respect that others get. And the reason I say that is because there's been some research that shows that women leaders are more likely to be interrupted than male leaders, whether that's a meeting or presentation or whatever that might be. And I also think to train our male colleagues about the biases in leadership opportunities and roles based upon gender or gender identity. That's critically important because now as many of us are working to give people the freedoms that they deserve to self-identify, it's a bigger issue than male and female. And we need to teach everyone in our organization to be respectful of the person that is in leadership.
Angel Pérez: Thank you for that, Yolanda. I opened up the podcast talking a little bit about your background and the extensive roles that you have had throughout your career. You have made long-term commitments to institutions all over the United States as well as to nonprofit boards. What is the key to your longevity and success?
Youlonda Copeland: I think the key is that I enjoy the work that I am doing, and here is why I enjoy it. I think one of the most meaningful opportunities we can have in life is to help others. I've never felt that life is about get all you can, can all you get, and sit on the can. I value the opportunity to help others, and I value the life experiences, the talent, the perspective that our students and our staff bring to the work that we do.
And of course, the big thing that we do is provide access to education. Education is a life-changing opportunity, and every child across America, across this world, should have the opportunity to go to college and to be prepared for college and to graduate from college. And one of the things that I've learned is that as colleagues, we have a lot in common.
We all want the same things, but I think one of the areas I would challenge my colleagues is in leading to make those things happen. I think too often we get a job description and we put ourselves in a box based upon that job description. The job description lays out what your main responsibilities are. It does not tell you how to do the work. And so what I've found is a way to do this work that has the impact that I'm looking to have on our society, starting with students from working class families, rural communities, underrepresented backgrounds.
And so it's rare that we take the opportunity to take the jobs that we've been given and turn it into a job that allows us to not only achieve the goals of our job description and responsibilities, but to exceed that and to make it fun, make it meaningful, to share it with others.
And so I would encourage folks to, if you have a great idea in your new position, go for it. Share it with others, test it out. Because when people hire us, they're not just hiring us to do the job. They're hiring us to make a difference, to have an impact, to do the job well. And I've been able to follow my passion, and I want to help every little child whose skin color may look like that of a 64 box of Crayola. I want to help them prepare for college, go to college, and go on and do amazing things in our society because of those opportunities.
And that's what keeps me going every day. And in fact, this retirement thing, I'm retiring from my job, but I'm not retiring from our common goal of creating access and equity for every individual regardless of age, regardless of background, regardless of where they may be in terms of their schooling. I don't care if you dropped out of community college 10 times. There's a reason you keep going back, right? And those are the students that I've had an opportunity to help throughout my career, and I'll do it until the good Lord calls me home as the old folks would say.
Angel Pérez: And I will say, by the way, your mission right there is exactly our vision at NACAC, which is that the transformative power of post-secondary education is available to all. Yolanda, you've had an extraordinary career. I know it's a tough question, but I'm going to put you on the spot. What are you most proud of?
Youlonda Copeland: I'm most proud that I have been able to navigate my work, where my family sees the importance of the work that I've chosen to do, and they supported me. I could not do this work without the support of family and friends. And so I'm thankful to have spent more than four decades doing this and to have had that support throughout, even when some of the decisions were difficult.
And then the second thing I'm most proud of is just the teams that I've been able to build over the years that somehow overwhelmingly I've been able to partner with and hire and work with individuals who share my passion and my goals. And then what we've seen is a ripple effect from that, that as you and I have gotten to know each other, then you go off and do your thing and look at the wonderful work that you're doing and leading a part of our profession right now.
And so you go off and you influence more people, and then they go off and they influence more people. And the beauty of it is everybody has an opportunity in our profession to help someone else. And you'll never know Angel, for example, the full impact that you have had on the individuals that you have touched in your different roles, but you know that you're making a difference because we all have those individual names and staff people and faculty people that we've partnered with to do this work. So I'm most proud of this legacy of being able to join like-minded individuals who share my passion and vision for equity and access.
Angel Pérez: Beautiful. Well, I think that's a perfect way to end our conversation, even though I can talk to you all day, Youlonda. But I want to thank you so much for being our guest, particularly being our guest during Women's History Month here at NACAC. And I want to thank everyone in the audience who also has chosen to join us.
College Admissions Decoded is a podcast from NACAC, the National Association for College Admission Counseling. It is produced by LWC. Kojin Tahiro produced this episode. If you would like to learn more about NACAC guests, our organization and the college admission process, visit our website, NACACnet.org.
CITATION: National Association for College Admission Counseling. “Creating Equity and Finding Meaning in College Admissions”
NACAC College Admissions Decoded,
National Association for College Admissions Counseling, March 7, 2023.