The Keys to Building a Good College List
Creating a college list is both art and science. Our guests recommend first answering some important questions, like: What are my goals? What am I passionate about? Who do I want to be? Then they recommend giving yourself lots of options in terms of size, distance, location, even ‘vibes.’
Guests: DeEnna Wisdom Holohan, founder of Collective Wisdom College Counseling, and Leilani Arita Takayama, associate director of college counseling at the 'Iolani School in Honolulu, Hawaii. Moderated by NACAC member Eddie Pickett, a college counselor and dean at Polytechnic School in Pasadena, California.
Eddie Pickett: Hello, new and old friends, and welcome to the College Admissions Decoded Podcasts, an occasional series from the National Association for College Admission Counseling, or NACAC. NACAC is an association of more than 25,000 professional is at high schools, colleges, universities, and nonprofit organizations, as well as independent counselors who support and advise students and families through the college admission process.
I'm your host, Eddie Pickett. I'm a longtime NACAC member in a college counselor and Dean at Polytechnic School in Pasadena, California. Today's conversation is all about creating a college list. It's one of the most important parts of the college admissions process and one that deserves plenty of time and intention. A smart well-developed college list begins with big questions like what are my goals? What am I passionate about? What are my career interests? And who do I want to be? The answers will help you determine your college choice and may reveal what matters most to you.
Some of you don't have answers for those questions yet, and that is completely fine. This is a process and so it's important to continually ask yourself these soul searching questions. With us for today's episode, our two NACAC members with plenty of experience advising students as they prepare their college lists. Let's meet them. First, we have DeEnna Wisdom Holohan, founder and advisor at collective wisdom, college counseling, where she helps students discover how to enter the college admissions process with confidence.
DeEnna Wisdom Holohan:
Hi there.
Pickett: Hello and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Next, we have Leilani Arita Takayama, the associate director of college counseling at the Ealani school in Hawaii.
Leilani Arita Takayama:
Hi everyone.
Pickett: All right. Thank you for joining us both. Let's jump on in. I think the first question, and just to start in talking about college lists is how early should a student begin creating a college list and can one start too early?
Takayama: So for me, when I'm talking with students, I know that they might have an idea of those particular institutions that they know they want to apply. The name brands, or maybe they have a family affiliation, mom or dad went there. And so I get that, but I try to tell my students, "Hey, let's be flexible because who you are as a freshman is going to be really different than who you become as a senior or a junior in the process." And so I want to acknowledge for students, yes, I'm listening to you, I hear your opinions, but let's give you some time to add in the other applications or for other institutions. And so we traditionally try to build in that flexibility in that junior year, just to have them do their research, check out schools, and then also use their summer to continue that research.
Holohan: I agree. I think what I would add to that is I typically ask students first, freshman and sophomore year, why do you want to go to college? Often I don't think we ask that question enough and to get them to start thinking about that first, before they start really building that list. And then as students enter end of sophomore year, beginning of junior year is usually when we start with a really big list, because I want them to dream big.
Pickett: Yeah. We won't even talk about college lists until this second semester, their junior year. First semester, let's get to know each other because I'm an 11, 12 Dean. And so we get them in 11th grade. There's no college talking. Why, because who are you? Without having college on the table, who are you? What are you about? What do you like? What don't you like and why? And that why question is one great question for the admissions process. So talking about just the basic factors in deciding on a college list, available major, size location, costs, all those good things. Are there any unusual or surprising factors that you might recommend?
Takayama: For our students in Hawaii, they're going on a plane to another island or maybe on the mainland somewhere. And so for them it's really about, okay, if I'm going to be far away from home can I build that community? What does that look like? Who's part of that community? If I go to a college institution, can I get the support that I need? So we usually have a big chat about that just because that transition can be really challenging, but fun one. I think also culture is very important just because we have the native Hawaiian students and of course our history and the culture and respecting that as well. But then kind of understanding what does it look like if I go somewhere else for college, whether that be in the United States or internationally.
Holohan: I think when students really start thinking about questions they should ask themselves when it comes to what they are looking for in an institution, I talk with, with my students about something called the seven Ps. And it's really a series of reflections that I learned about when I was working at Loyola Academy in the Midwest. And it is thinking about what they want personally, who they are as a person. What you talked about as far as what are the things that they need at an institution to be happy and successful. Secondly, the program that they're thinking about, thinking about major, thinking about what is their area of interest. Place, location. People, the people that they want to surround themselves with. Price, cost. What their parents think, not necessarily something that every student wants to admit, but parents do have influence. And then the philosophy of the institution. So those are all things that I encourage students to do deep thinking on.
Pickett: How often do they actually do this deep thinking?
Holohan: They do. It's kind of like that why question? Right it the beginning. Why do you want to go to college? It's kind of the other hand. It's what are those things that are important to you? Not important to what everybody else says that you should be considering in the college process, but really doing that deep internal work, I think can really help students find that right fit.
Pickett: Can you just run through those seven Ps again, without all the in between, just hear the letter, the names?
Takayama: Person, program, place, people, price, parents, and philosophy.
Pickett: Thank you. A lot of factors consider for sure. So where do students begin? What questions should students be asking themselves as they begin compiling their college lists?
Takayama: I think there's just so many places to start, honestly, trying to sort through all the information that's being thrown at you, whether it's from the college website, through the college visits, social media, their friends are also talking a lot and that can be really hard to navigate through. I think for me, and we've talked about it earlier today, is that why. Why am I going here? What am I looking for? Who do I want to surround myself with? What kind of people do I want to be in class with? But also on the weekends, hang out and do whatever that might be. And so really kind of looking at a bunch of different factors that DeEnna has really done a great job chatting about.
One of the other really big things that I'm also trying to help with our students is don't also focus on what other folks are doing. Really look inside yourself and see what are the most important things to me. I know we chatted about flexibility and I always try to remind them who you are right now is going to be different when you're a senior. I had so many situations with students where Miss AT, that's what they call me back home, I want to go to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It has to be in California, this or that. And then at the end of the senior year, guess what? You're going somewhere completely different. And it always makes me laugh, but I appreciate that because I can always have those stories to look back on, but it really shows you how we evolve and change as people.
Pickett: I'm just saying there's some great stuff in California.
Takayama: There is.
Pickett: And I'm obviously biased, but there's some pretty dope things. Some pretty dope people too.
Takayama: We love California.
Holohan: I'm a little biased as well. Agreed.
Pickett: Just a lot.
Holohan: Completely agree with that. That's why we encourage kids when they're crafting their list to make sure that they are considering broadly and applying broadly. Often students will say, "I want to go far, far away." That's one of the major things that they say, I want to go far away. And I have had students say to me, I don't want to put any California schools on my list. I want to go far away from home. I always encourage them to make sure that yes, we most certainly want to explore. We want to put schools on your list that are in areas that you want to adventure to. At the same time, let's make sure we have some that are closer to home because like you said, things change.
Pickett: Oh, they definitely change. I think for us, we always start with the student. We have them do an interest inventory. And so I'm interested in this, I've explored in high school this way and I may be able to explore in college this way. And so that way we're not talking about a single college. I talk about you, because again, you are the star player in this. And so if we start with you, then we can start to talk about colleges. But without doing that, can't really go too much further.
And then academic program is always a big one. I really want to go to the school and I want to study engineering, well that school doesn't have engineering. Why that school? And they look at you like, because that's where my family has gone. It's like, that's great. You're probably not going there because they don't have what you're interested in. Now, if you're undecided, it's a little different ballgame. But if you know what you're wanting to major in school, doesn't offer it. Why? So I'll leave that there. Is there an ideal number of colleges to put on a list? What would be too few? What would be too many?
Holohan: I often encourage students to apply to roughly six to nine schools. I encourage students to apply to roughly two to three likely schools, two to three target schools, two to three reach schools. Having too many reach schools on the list, that causes stress and having only likelys, will sometimes leave students wondering maybe I should have put that reach school on my list. I wonder what might have happened had I done that? And I think having too schools on the list, it can be hard to manage not only in the application part of the process, but after all the applications are in, there are portals to manage, there's information coming from the colleges and universities to manage. So I think six to nine is a good balance list.
Takayama: I'd definitely say the same. Had students come up to me and say, "Oh, so I'm thinking about applying here, here, here." And then before I know it, I have a list of 30 schools that's on the list and every time a student comes in my office to tell me that I always look at them and I ask, "Okay, great. I'm so excited that you are really interested in all these places, but at the end of the day, when you are getting ready for next year, you're only going to one place. One place to call home for however many years, you're there right? To do your studies to live life, to do amazing things. Why are you going to put yourself through all that stress and all that extra work?"
Because I think students tend to forget that, "Hey, I have a life that I'm living this senior year. I've got sports, extracurriculars, family obligations. I've got senior classes that I have to take care of. And do I really have enough time in the day to make 15 school applications by November 1st or however many by whatever regular decision deadline." I've had students do that in the past. And it never ends very well because people are sad, it's just very stressful for them. So I definitely echo six to nine is a perfect number.
Holohan: And I would also add to that. I often tell students the application part is not necessarily the hard part. The decision making piece is the hardest part. So if you get into 15 institutions out of those 30 that you apply to, and you have a month to decide, that's where the challenge is. So being able to narrow it on the front end, I think is definitely beneficial.
Pickett: I would agree to that. For undergrad I was two for six, in grad school was five for five. It was much harder for grad school because they're also the same program in places I wanted to live. So it was very different for that. DeEnna, You also mentioned a couple of terms I want to define. So let's talk about some of those important terms in the colleges process. Reach schools, target schools, and likely schools. And we'll use likely schools on purpose instead of safety schools. Because why would you apply to a school that you wouldn't want to attend? I.e. A safety school. So can you just talk about the difference in those terms and what those terms are?
Holohan: Sure. The way that I define it as a reach school is a school where you sit either below the averages of GPA and test score, maybe, depending on the institution and what they're using or it's a school that's so selective, they admit such a tiny number of students it's going to be a reach school for any kid. For a target school, you're a good, solid fit for that institution, both academically, but maybe the decision could be impacted based on what major you're applying into or how many students have applied to that institution that year. So it could maybe go either way. And a likely institution is an institution that you look like a pretty solid slam dunk for that school. You look like you fit academically as far as you're right in the center of that mid 50% or maybe you're even above for GPA and test score.
Takayama: I love that. That's such a great, clear explanation. I would actually use those same definitions for my students too. I think one thing that we've tried to focus in with students is when we talk about that reach, target, likely list, it seems like it's more described in that academic sense, right? You were using GPA and test scores, but one thing that we've been trying to teach our students and families is let's also talk about that financial aspect. Is it a financial reach, a financial target, a financial likely, and that really looks different across different students, families. There are specific economic situations. And so really having that conversation about both the academic and the financial side is so key. I wish we could start that actually as early as we could.
Pickett: So two topics I just picked up on is finances, we're going to get to that for sure. But I also want to sit and talk about the reach, target, likely ideas and particularly about students perspectives on the likely side of the list versus the reach. It's really easy to get excited about a reach school, but what about the likelys? And so what conversations are you having with your students around the likely side of their list?
Holohan: Well, I always tell a student that a school shouldn't be on their list unless I want to go there and they should be just as excited about their likely institutions as their reach institutions that actually makes the whole process so much better. And it makes it so much more calm. Because as a student gets into a likely institution, they're going to celebrate that. And we do celebrate that, even though we're pretty confident that they're going to get into that institution because it's a celebration because it's an institution that they want to go to. So I think if the list building experience is what it should be, all of those institutions should be ones that they're excited about.
Takayama: I think another thing that we try to incorporate into that conversation is that transition piece from the fall, where you're applying to spring, where it's really about, okay, you've gotten into these amazing places. What's next? What are you excited for? What are going to be those things that you are planning and trying to prep for basically? But all of those institutions on your list are going to be amazing options. And so what are you excited about for all those places? I think when we reframe it, because there is a little bit of a competitive edge or a little bit of a comparison game when we're talking about reach, target, likely, that focus is really there. But if we reframe to what's your next steps, what are those options? What are we planning for? Because it's not just college, but it's life after and how that leads into that next arena in your life. I find that that really helps the students get excited for that future because it's easy to kind of lose sight of that.
Pickett: And a pro tip to the parents out there, please celebrate every single college admissions acceptance, every single one. Because if you are setting the tone, oftentimes in this, if you celebrate them, they will celebrate them as well, no matter where it sits on your list. So please don't and forget that. I just have a general... I have a general question in thinking about this as well. And that is just this. What do you say when a student comes in your office in November and says, I finished my six to nine applications, can I apply to more? And you know they're going to add selective schools on there. What do you say?
Holohan: So I first and foremost ask them why. Why? What's your reason? And sometimes there are valid reasons and that's okay, but let's have a conversation about it. And then I return to what I talked about earlier, which is the hardest part is not the application. The hardest is the deciding and managing what happens after you submit all these applications.
Takayama: I think for me, that's a worst night where honestly, for a college counselor and November 1st, you're already stressed and probably a little cranky, to be honest. For me, I'm really looking at, okay, so you've done some of the work, let's chat about these other places that you're looking to. Do we really feel that you are prepared, that you really feel that what you have presented on this application is your best effort? Because if you're wanting to apply to any institution, you really want to have the best representation of you, your personality, your interests, the things that really guide you as a person. And are you really going to be able to do that by whatever deadline? And so trying to really understand where the student is coming up, with these options and can we actually prepare for that process as well? But yes, that is something that has come up through the years for sure.
Pickett: Yeah. We always talk about just we don't want you to water down your application. The more applications you put out above that six to nine, the more likely you are to water down something, because you haven't spent the time researching that school. You haven't spent the time and energy in the writing process. And when you're just adding something on at the end, you're not just adding on particularly when they have a really long supplement. I want to get back to the second idea from earlier and finances. And so how important is it to consider college costs when making the lists and ideally what's the best time to have the discussion about affordability?
Takayama: If we could have that conversation from the first time the students and their family walk through the doors, that would be so wonderful. Honestly, conversations about finance are hard. It's a really personal situation for families. Money is a really hard topic between families, between different institutions, even with college counselors. And so sometimes I feel that that topic of finance is really pushed to the later part of the process. But at that point it's too late, deadlines have passed, applications are done. And at that point I've had situations where students have gotten admissions decisions that are wonderful, they're acceptances, but then the family discovers, oh, we can't afford this particular institution. And it's really disappointing for students. It's really hard for families. And if we could, I would be knocking down doors, doing financial aid and affordability webinars as much as I could or presentations as much as I could.
But really, as soon as we meet with the students, part of that process of just getting to know them, I always think of like, okay, well besides all these other aspects of the college admissions process, what are the other components? Are we looking at scholarships? Are you looking to apply to financial aid? Just so that I, as a counselor can get a better gauge of the situation and then be able to be their advocate through the process just because it's never a three month thing. It's ongoing and it probably lasts through the whole process.
Holohan: I encourage families to start talking about what does the budget look like freshman or sophomore year. Starting to have those conversations about budget, not bottom line, but in general, what is the budget? And then I always encourage families to, as students roll into junior year, to start doing net price calculators that are on every college website. It can really give families an idea of what the possible financial aid award looks like from different institutions. But I always tell families, don't assume you are going to get financial aid, but also don't assume that you're not. That's why the net price calculators are such a valuable tool. Often students will say to me, "Well, I don't know if I can afford this institution, so I'm not going to put it on my list." I also don't think that is something they should do either. Don't eliminate a school because you don't think you can afford it, but use the resources of a net price calculator to see what the possibilities are.
Takayama: Can I just echo that please? Because I feel that most people when they hear that from a college counselor, it just gets buried in their mind and then never reappears until later, later, later. But if families and students can take advantage of the net price calculator, as soon as possible, just especially in that junior year, when they're building that list and looking for institutions to apply to, it really takes the guesswork, it takes I feel like a little bit of anxiety out just because you have an idea and we can plan, right. Whatever that plan looks like for families. So, yes, please, please, please use that net price calculator.
Pickett: For clarity. Can one of you just define what the net price calculator is? Who has it and what is it used for in this process?
Holohan: Sure. I believe it was the Obama administration that required all institutions in the United States to place a net price calculator on their website. So what I tell my students is simply go to any college website that you're interested in and in their search bar type in net price calculator. It's going to be the first thing that's going to pop up for you. And it briefly takes about 10 minutes to fill it out. It's going to ask some general information about students GPA. Some of them will ask students standardized test score or an estimated test score. It'll ask some basic information about family finances as far as tax information from the previous year. And then it will pop up on the screen, an estimated financial aid package. Now different institutions have different levels of robustness of what comes up. So sometimes it may just be federal aid or state aid that might pop up, but other institutions, it may also pop up merit aid and scholarships that the student may be eligible for that institution.
Pickett: We throw out a lot of terms, my favorite being holistic admissions, which nobody defines and fit, which again, nobody defines. And so can you talk about what fit is, how you define it and why is it important?
Holohan: To me, fit goes back to the seven Ps that we talked about earlier. It goes back to doing a deep reflection on the things that are most important to the individual student. When there's lack of fit, that's when we see students not returning to the institution. We see students being unhappy. We see students being homesick. We see students transferring out or dropping out. I believe that just because a college is a sought after school, it doesn't mean that it will be an institution that that particular student is going to be happy at. For me, I'm always asking students to return to the seven Ps.
Takayama: For us, when we look at our students and just thinking about, okay, what is college fit? It's thinking about these questions. Does the place that I'm attending to apply, does it meet my personal, my academic, my professional goals? Can I succeed academically? And what does that actually mean to you? Are we talking about research? Are we talking about classes? Are we talking about things after college? Can I be there socially happy? Will I thrive there? And is it affordable? Is it accessible? Are there people that look like me, that are from my communities there? Am I well represented or can I have my voice in this institution and be respected? And so just thinking about those questions and evaluating for myself or the student, what does that mean? Because for every student it's going to look super different based on their backgrounds, based on their experiences. And so just kind of evaluating those pieces will be very key to understanding what is that fit for them.
Pickett: I think for me, I talk about comfort often. And so what's going to be your comfort level on campus and it should not be a hundred percent because you have nothing to learn, if you're always comfortable. You learn from being uncomfortable. I'm not saying you should be uncomfortable all the time, but maybe the 80 20 rule is actually a really good rule for this to say, 80% of the time, you should be comfortable. But in that 20%, it's going to push you further. It's going to make you a better person. It's going to make you a better student. It's also are going to make you a better friend. And college is often about the people you're around just as much as the academics. Because in high school, you're in class for 30, 35 hours in college, no more than 20. You got a lot of time to yourself. So what's going to be your comfort level on this campus? To move a little forward. Just thinking about resources, because resources are pretty idea in this field. What resources do you recommend the students consult when creating their lists?
Takayama: I honestly would say if you have your college counselor or an adult that you can work with for college applications, go to them first, they know you, they know your story, they know what you're looking for. And so by doing so you can start that process with personalization and also just having that time to understand and do that research. Some of the books that I really, really enjoy are things that are the colleges that change lives. Just finding things that are not on particular ranked lists is a great place to start. Just because let's challenge the as notions.
Students are always going to know specific institutions just by a name or by family history. So why not go to different places? Another really fun place, or I don't know if it's fun, but I actually really like looking up on YouTube day in the life of whatever student so you can pick whatever institution, but it's really interesting because you can see what does that day look like? Who are the people that are represented? Is it just women? Is it just men? What are they choosing to highlight? And so I actually feel like that's pretty accurate because you're getting it straight from the source.
Pickett: So parents often think that their resources as well. And so what do you think should be the role of a parent during this process?
Holohan: I suppose I believe that a parent should be there to be the biggest cheerleader, to ask the student to reflect and think about themselves, to lift up the student's strengths and ask, do they match the institutions that they're looking at. So I would say that parents can also be great resources to help students schedule tours and do things like that. I always look at them as the helpful administrative assistance. That they can assist in those ways so that the student has room and the time for the deep reflection, whether it's thinking about their list, whether it's thinking before they're writing and they have the time and the space to do that.
Takayama: I love that. I'm going to use that with my parents as well. For me, I would really love to see our parents just of this generation that's upcoming empower their students. Sometimes I have situations where parents will be emailing me about a question on an application or something in particular about essays, which is great. I'm very appreciative of parents that have the opportunity to be that involved with their student applications. But I would love to see student's voice and them stepping up and communicating with me or the admissions' office or the financial aid office. Because at the end of the day, those are the students that are going to college that are living within these college campuses for the next four years. And so how will they be able to navigate those experiences with other adults, with other folks their age, if every step of the way has been maybe guided very strongly by their parents. So I would love, yes. I would love to see them empower their students.
Pickett: Yeah. I always say that we can create a list, but we are not going to college. He, she, they, Z are going to college, not we.
Takayama: Very true.
Pickett: So what about the people who don't have of parents to help them or a college counselor? So for me, I'm a first generation graduate. I went to a public school of 4,000 people. I couldn't tell you who my counselor was. I know she was a woman. I couldn't tell you hair color, her face, what she looked like. I couldn't even tell you her name. And so for those people who have those stories, where do they turn?
Holohan: Well, I think there are resources in, hopefully there are teachers that they look up to in their school, even if it's not the college counselor, maybe it's a teacher that they can talk to about that. I also was a first generation to college student and felt pretty darn lost in the process and ended up only applying to one school and going to one school. So I always encourage students to seek out others and ask them, where did you go to college? What did you like about your experience? What did you not like about your experience? What would you do differently if you could choose again? So those are some things. And then there are also some really great community based organizations that I would encourage students to seek out, that hopefully will be there to help and guide and support them through that process.
Pickett: Leilani, you also talked about rankings and so what advice would you give students about the value of college rankings? For example, the US News and World report.
Takayama: Take it with a grain of salt. When students come into my office about the US rankings listing, number one through number 10 or whatever ranking it might be, I cringe a little bit inside just because I know, okay, you're just taking it at face value. And so when I talk with my students I'm just challenging them with, okay, well, did you research how these rankings are actually created? What are they actually evaluating? Is it graduation and a retention rate is really important, but for you, you really want to know who's your community, what's the diversity over there? What are the resources? That ranking might not be able to tell you that information without you going and researching yourself. I think right now it's just really easy to look at social media or look at the news or whatever it may, and just kind of absorb that information and take it at face value without doing those additional steps to really understanding like, Hey, is this true? Is this relevant to me? Is this something that I need to use? And so yes, taking it with a grain of salt is very, very important.
Holohan: I always say ratings are subjective. And the way that I like to illustrate it to my students is this, rating schools is kind of like rating ice cream flavors. And so if you give me your top five and they all include chocolate, what if I'm allergic? Or are those top choices, top choices for who? Maybe not for me. Maybe I like some with some fruit or maybe I like something without dairy. I always say to students best for whom.
Pickett: Now I want to remind you that prestige doesn't teach you.
Holohan: Correct.
Pickett: Now that we've gone through creating the list, we have our list or you're finalizing your list. We're going to talk about the college visit process. So how important is it to visit a college before putting it on your list?
Holohan: I actually talk to students about visiting institutions way before they even think about creating a list. I'm very lucky, I'm based in the bay area. And a lot of the students I work with are in the bay area. And so what I tell them to do, especially students that are near large cities is choose different types of institutions to visit. So I always tell students, visit a large school, large state institution, visit a small liberal arts school, maybe visit a colleges that change live school, visit an institution that is in the heart of a city or visit one that's out in a rural area and get the vibes of different types of institutions. And that's going to give you a good feel.
And then as you're talking with your counselor, as you're talking, maybe with your independent counselor, if you have one, you can tell them these are the types of institutions that I'm most excited about and they can help you form a list based on the types of institutions you're most excited about. A lot of times students cannot visit all the institutions they want to before they put them on their list or before they apply to those institutions. But being able to visit like institutions can be really helpful in this process.
Takayama: Definitely. I think for us recognizing where we're at with the pandemic and how that might impact travel, I've also tried to encourage our students just because we have a little bit longer of a journey to get to wherever...
Pickett: Just a tad bit.
Holohan: Just a little bit. And so that was a question that did come up, "Hey, I can't travel to wherever it is because there's travel restrictions or just the financial situation has changed. So it's just not in the budget." And so for those students, I definitely want to encourage you, "Hey, that is the situation at hand, but it's not going to ever stop you from making really amazing choices and research. You can do online virtual tours, you can do the admissions visits with the admissions counselors to get a really good glimpse into what the institution might feel like. And so it's not the actual physical visit, but you really do get another way of looking at an institution by virtual means." And that is a really great thing that has occurred recently is just, our tech has been so much better now recently.
Pickett: Yeah, that is one good thing that actually did come out of the pandemic, because there's so much more information online. There's a lot more schools who have done online tours. They've thought about a tour guide leading it from their campus and watching it, being able to watch it from home. I've seen that multiple times. But the access to information because of the pandemic has definitely increased. And so, take advantage of those opportunities. If you can't afford it, that's part of life for a lot of people, myself included. And so when that happens, what of resource do I have? Online's a great thing. It is such a lovely thing.
Also, there are some schools who actually fly you to their campuses. There are diversity programs and multicultural programs, and just overnight programs in general, they'll fly you out to campus. And my big thing is a closed mouth doesn't get fed. And so you're never going to have an answer if you don't ask the question. And so why not ask the question of the admissions office? Can I? Will you do this? What about this? Get your questions answered. This is a great time for that.
Sadly, I'm afraid that's all the time we have today. Many thanks to DeEnna and Leilani for a great conversation and thanks to our audience for joining us for this episode on creating the college list.
College Admissions Decoded is a podcast from NACAC, the National Association for College Admission Counseling. It is produced by LWC. Kojin Tashiro produced this episode. If you would like to learn more about NACAC's guests, our organization, and the college admissions process, visit our website at www.nacacnet.org, or spelled out N-A-C-A-C-N-E-T.org. Please leave a review and rate us on Apple Podcasts. See you next time on College Admissions Decoded.
CITATION: National Association for College Admission Counseling. “The Keys to Building a Good College List” NACAC College Admissions Decoded, National Association for College Admissions Counseling, November 22, 2021.