College Admissions Decoded

Special Edition: Next Gen Admission Professionals Seek Balance, Values, and Self-Actualization at Work

Episode Notes

Angel Pérez, CEO of NACAC, talks with two up-and-coming college admission professionals about lessons learned from the pandemic, how to find workplaces that share your values, and what they think lies ahead for the next generation of college admission counselors. 

NACAC's 2021 Rising Star Award Winners Jonathan Gowin, director of the Regional Student Program at the New England Board of Higher Education, and Noor Haddad, associate director of college counseling at The Bishop's School. Moderated by NACAC CEO Angel Pérez.

Episode Transcription

Angel Pérez: Hello, and welcome to the College Admissions Decoded podcast, an occasional series from the National Association for College Admission Counseling, or as we call it, NACAC. NACAC is an association of more than 26,000 professionals at high schools, colleges, universities, and nonprofit organizations, as well as independent counselors who support and advise students and families through the college admission process. I'm Angel Pérez, NACAC CEO, and host of today's special edition.

Pérez: College Admissions Decoded typically covers topics that are important to students and families who are considering next steps in the college admission process. But today, I'm here with two of NACAC's rising stars who will share insight about the future of the college admission profession from their perspectives as individuals who recently entered the field. Their participation today is particularly timely since experts estimate that by 2030, 74% of the workforce will be comprised of millennial and Gen Z workers. So join me in welcoming Noor Haddad, Associate Director of College Counseling at The Bishop's School in La Jolla, California. Welcome, Noor.

Noor Haddad: Thank you so much for having me, Angel.

Pérez: And with us today is also Jonathan Gowin, Director of Regional Student Program at the New England Board of Higher Education and formally Assistant Director of Admission at Carnegie Mellon University. Thanks for being here, Jonathan.

Jonathan Gowin: Thank you, Angel. Happy to be here.

Pérez: So both Noor and Jonathan were 2021 recipients of NACAC's Rising Star Award, which honors individuals and programs that exemplify excellence and dedication to serving the needs of students and those who guide them in transition from high school to college. So I'm particularly excited to have them join us today. So let's dive in. So first of all, maybe we'll start with the basics. Tell me a little bit about how you got into the profession and maybe I'll start with you Noor.

Haddad: Great. So it's interesting because I had a conversation at the recent WACAC conference this week about this very topic. And I referred to the way I entered college counseling as a series of very fortunate events. It was not necessarily something I thought of when I was in college that I wanted to be a college counselor. In fact, I didn't actually know that profession existed. And so I had a previous mentor from one of my first jobs right out of college who had a really good conversation with me about all of my needs and the priorities I was looking for. And it ended up being that I fit really well with the idea of college counseling. And I entered the world by way of Collegewise which is a college admission counseling company. I worked there for about five years and then recently made the transition over to The Bishop's School last July.

Pérez: So Jonathan, how about you?

Gowin: So I really fell in love with higher education through my own undergrad experience. I had what may be described as the stereotypical transformative undergraduate experience. I came from a first gen very rural working class background and my undergrad experience at Lycoming College in Pennsylvania really changed the way that I looked at the world and broadened my perspective. And so while I was there, I realized that for my career I wanted to work in colleges. So I got my start first in the world of student affairs and residents life. But while doing that work, I realized that as much as I did and I still do really enjoy working one-on-one with students very closely, I really became enamored and fascinated by the system of higher education and really wanted to begin exploring that.

Gowin: And admissions has been a really excellent profession for really getting the best of both worlds, being able to work closely with students, but also really being able to understand a lot of more of the systemic and administrative aspects of higher ed, like the revenue side of things, the economics, the various politics and policies as well. So it's been a wonderful time so far and I'm excited to keep going.

Pérez: Wonderful, wonderful. Well, you all joined the profession recently, but during that time, the profession has under gone extraordinary shifts. We've had a global pandemic, we've had racial reckoning in this country, huge financial crisis for institutions, both on the secondary side and on the college side as well. And I think many of us can admit that our work has just fundamentally shifted. So I'm wondering what has changed for you and maybe I'll start with you Noor.

Haddad: One of the reasons that I really enjoy college counseling is because there are so many things to learn. I consider myself a perpetual learner. And so I want to make sure to demystify these types of changes and evolutions as the years have gone by for families and for students. To be honest, one of the biggest factors that has shifted my mindset was the pandemic. I think it caused a lot of reprioritization. I know that for me, but also for a lot of colleagues that I've spoken with. And I realized that there are so many issues that I want to make sure to make changes in. I want to contribute to not just the world of admission, but the world of education itself and the system of higher education, making sure that it's accessible for those students who want to reach their goals and maybe have lots of insurmountable odds to overcome in order to get there.

Haddad: So lots of my passions surround mental health, particularly for students of color. I credit a presentation I was able to give at a WACAC conference a few years ago with a lot of my own career trajectory in that I really understood here are the issues I want to prioritize in my counseling and how I tackle conversations with students is really stemmed from that particular turning point for me. And I think with the pandemic, I'm going to speak for myself in saying, I know that remote work is really, really great for a lot of people. And when we shifted to Zoom, of course, it's great that we were able to have this ability to still work, still do our jobs really well.

Haddad: I really miss that person interaction. I miss being part of a community where I could connect with a lot of folks. And I think that caused me to shift my own priorities. And making the transition over to the high school side and the school environment has been a really, really amazing change for me. I have really enjoyed just being a part of the students' lives a little bit more. And so for me, I will say that these are the things that I realized about myself. And I have had so many conversations with colleagues and friends about their own needs shifting and how they've really come to terms with what they can do in order to take control of the way that they want to live their life in this profession.

Pérez: If any profession struggled through the pandemic with the inability to see each other and engage in person it's the college admission profession. Most people don't realize how much of a people profession we are and how much of our work happens in person and in relationship development. So what about you Jonathan, what's changed for you?

Gowin: So for me, what the pandemic was, was really a great time to sit and reflect. I think if I'm grateful for anything that the pandemic provided was a bit of stillness. We work in a fast moving profession. Admissions and college counseling is busy work, especially during the high points of the year. But I found for me, it really provided a great opportunity to slow down and to reflect and to really think about what is it that I love about the work, what are the issues that I care most about and to which I would like to apply myself and my skills.

Gowin: And I really found myself norming around a lot of things. And Noor actually she touched on some issues that also resonate with me. The issue of college access, issues of mental health, also issues around the cost of college, the rising cost and the crisis of public faith as it relates to the perception of value of higher education. And so those are things that for me, they really became the dominant issues that I realized I cared deeply about. And as the pandemic wore on and I spent more time thinking about them, I realized I wanted to apply myself through my career to solving or understanding these issues to the best that I could.

Gowin: And I consider myself very, very fortunate I discovered the position that I now am in entirely by accident. And what I saw for the potential of that position is really the opportunity to act on some of those issues, particularly around access and affordability of higher ed. And so for me, the last few years what's changed the most is the opportunity to clarify what is it that I love most about this work, because as the demographics show, our jobs are only going to get harder. Higher education is only going to be in a more precarious position. And so I think for us as professionals we really need to think about what are the issues we care most about for the long haul so that we can stay in the work, we can stay inspired. And so the last couple of years have granted me an opportunity to think deeply about that.

Pérez: Well, Jonathan, that's a perfect transition to my next question. I want us to talk a little bit about what I've been calling these days the elephant in the room and something that keeps me up at night in this role that I have. Many people are talking about leaving the profession, and many of us know individuals who have left the profession. And I know that both of you talk to your friends who are millennials and Gen Zers that are thinking about leaving. Can you talk a little bit about why, what are some of the themes that you're hearing? Maybe I'll start with you, Jonathan.

Gowin: Sure, sure. I talk about this a lot with colleagues, with coworkers, with folks that I know through the ACAC networks. And I think the dominant narrative really comes down to two things. The first is feeling a lack of flexibility in the wake of returning to work. I think that we became so accustomed and I say we as professionals, generally, we became so accustomed to the flexibility of working from home and the ability to do our jobs from various different places. And if higher education has fumbled the ball recently is that appears that many of our offices are returning very rapidly to very structured and stringent in office working policies. And I think that it makes it very difficult for us to adjust and I think a lot of folks just are beginning to see other professionals in other professions really achieve higher levels of perceived work-life balance.

Gowin: And so I think it's very difficult for folks to feel like they have enough time to live their lives fully. I think folks are struggling with that. And the second piece really revolves around the fact that I don't think the lifestyle of the admissions road runner is quite as appealing to as many folks anymore. In the pre-pandemic days, the ability to travel for work and to recruit and to spend a lot of time getting on and off of planes and in hotels and at college fairs, it's exciting and it's fast paced and it offered wonderful opportunities to connect very deeply with other professionals. That's something that I know I've sorely missed over the last few years, but I've found that in the conversations I've had with folks that the opportunity to earn hotel points, the opportunity to earn flight miles and really to live the jet setting life, I don't think it's quite as attractive anymore.

Pérez: How about you, Noor? What are you observing?

Haddad: So Jonathan brought up so many really interesting points and I think those were echoed in my conversations over the last few days. I'm glad that we actually have representation from both the high school side and the college side, because I've not had a traditional admission background where I was traveling, gathering all the Marriott points. I think what is interesting on my end is not just the sense of flexibility in reference to the pandemic and remote work. I spoke to that earlier, where I actually said that remote work isn't a good fit for me. And I would say I'm probably a minority in that, at least from some of the conversations I've been having.

Haddad: But I think the other really, really big realignment that I'm seeing is folks want to work somewhere where their values are aligned with their workplace. And I think that is attributed to not just the recent attention given to racism that has existed in this country, in this world for a very long time. But I think to speak to millennials and I can't necessarily speak for Gen Z, I think it's really important that people work in places that align with their values and align with the issues that they want to tackle and align with their own personal priorities.

Haddad: It's really interesting to me to see how much of a focus that has been in many workplaces. Lots of colleges, lots of schools are making statements on anti-racism, but I think aside from the statements they want to live those values, they want to make sure that the conversations they're having with students they can actually believe in what they're saying. And so I think that has been a really, really important turning point for a lot folks. And to speak to the reflection that Jonathan was referring to when it comes to the pandemic, it was very isolating for a lot of people so you really had no other choice other than to really sit in your thoughts and think about the things that were really important to you and your core being.

Haddad: And so I think that is absolutely something that I look for. And to speak as someone who has recently shifted roles, I looked for that in all of the places that I have worked thus far. It has been a really important core value for me in that I want to make sure that the folks that I'm working alongside are serving the best interests of students that are around us and I'm not going to have to question that one person is believing one thing and the other is not. I think there's definitely a place for disagreement and conversation and dialogue and I want to be in spaces where that exists, but I think to me, human rights are at the center of the work that I do and I want to make sure that I'm working in a space where that is valued. And that I am going to be expected to work actively toward a more equitable system for students.

Pérez: Noor, it's interesting you bring up values because it's something I'm particularly passionate about. And here at NACAC, when I arrived the team actually went through an exercise of creating a mission statement, not for the organization, but for the team, as well as values. Like what are the values that we actually all as employees of the organization want to adhere to? And actually now every time we have new employees join us, they actually sign a letter that acknowledges the mission statement and the values and what we will adhere to. And we try to really figure out every single year, "How are we living up to those values?" And so it's great to hear that the younger generation is thinking about this deeply as well.

Gowin: Yeah. I'd like to add onto that because as Noor was talking about values and you as well, I think one of the things that comes to mind for me and is reflected in the conversations I've had with folks is that there is definitely a shift in the realization I think that came from the pandemic insofar as we know higher education exists to make the world a better place, that's the line. Higher education is a public good. We are here to encourage students' self-actualization and to allow them and enable them to live their lives to their fullest.

Gowin: But when we think about the last couple years, the pandemic, the racial reckoning, I think a lot of higher ed staff members are beginning to ask themselves, "Well, what about my self-actualization? What about living my life to the fullest? What about living my values to the fullest?" And I think that's what's contributing so much to this reflection is staff members looking around and saying, "Well, what if my organization isn't living up to the values that I hold so dear?" Or, "What if the profession is not?"

Gowin: And so if there's anything that stands out as a necessity for the profession going forward and for leadership, there's this element of really getting to know folks and understanding what are the goals of each professional and how do they want to live their lives to the fullest? I think it's time in a way for sort of higher education to put its money where its mouth is when it comes to its staff, as well as its students.

Pérez: That's actually a great point and something that I think a lot of the research on staff development right now is pointing to, that a one size fits all approach to staff development, professional development, staff retention, that is no longer a strategy for success. That we all need to really get to know each and every one of our staff members and really try to help figure out what is it that motivates them, inspires them, what is their why? And really try to bring some of that into their day-to-day as well.

Pérez: The other thing that I've been thinking deeply about in lots of conversations that I've had with people in the profession is just generational differences between the way some of our younger professionals and some of our more senior professionals engage. And I actually read an article last night in The Chronicle of Higher Education. It's written by Aaron Basko who's at the University of Lynchburg. He's actually a NACAC member. It's called, "How to make your campus a better place to build a career."

Pérez: And he made three interesting statements that I want to share with you. I'm going to read them and I'd love to get your reaction to see is he onto something or is he way off here. So he says, "Boomers tend to value loyalty and time on task and want to be rewarded in status. Xers value efficiency and effectiveness, and want to be rewarded with freedom and choice. Millennials tend to value authenticity and community and want to be rewarded with study positive feedback and a chance to make a difference." Noor, what do you think of that?

Haddad: I actually have lots of thoughts on that. I mean, I would say I align myself somewhat with millennials, but also I associate with the Gen X piece of that. I do think that millennials have a bad rap. Sometimes it's interesting to hear how lots of folks might assess what our needs are and they often are misinterpreted. To speak to one of Jonathan's points earlier, we want stability as well. We want to make sure that we're finding value and important in the work that we're doing, but also that we are having our most basic human needs met in the ability to grow, in the ability to take care of ourselves, in the ability to find purpose in the things that we are doing.

Haddad: And to speak to the positive feedback, I think positive feedback is good if it's earned. I think what happens often is there's a misconception that we're in need of perpetual positive feedback about everything, but I actually really need criticism. I need the critiques in order to grow and to learn. And that's something I find really important in my work. I never want to be complacent about the work that I'm doing. I want to learn from others. I want to interact with others that can make me better and can challenge me. And so I do associate with that statement in that effect.

Pérez: That's great. Thanks Noor. How about you, Jonathan?

Gowin: I mostly agree with it. Most of my thoughts sort of are directed at the millennial piece. That's the one that I can speak to most directly based on my personal experience. And I would say that it's just about spot on, but there's certainly some nuance to that. I think the community piece is interesting, the need for community, because I think that many leaders might hear that and think, "Well, then that must mean that I need to create a strong community within my office." And I'm not necessarily sure that's the case. I think, yes, offices should be strong communities, but I think more importantly, from the leadership perspective, it should be about how do you ensure that each of your staff members, each member of your team feels like they have a community in the place where they're at with their life as it is.

Gowin: Now, that could mean that their most valued community is not within the office. So it could be within affinity group on campus. It could be in the neighborhood in which they live. And I think it's an important lesson for leadership to really think critically about in your conversations with staff, how are you bringing that up? How are you talking with the folks whom you're leading about how they feel connected to the folks around them, whether it's directly with the people with whom they work or other colleagues on campus, or even folks in their personal life? Because if we expect staff to have buy-in in their work, if we expect staff to be inspired, I think there really needs to be that connection somehow.

Gowin: And especially as hybrid work becomes more prolific, I think it's going to be more important for leaders to take the time to really learn and encourage the folks that they are leading to be connected in various ways. And the other aspect of that is the piece about wanting to have meaning and praise. And I see the nuance to this, and I'm speaking from a lot of personal experience here myself, is that the praise and the feedback piece I think it's most important and most valuable and most inspiring, I should say, when it's made clear to me what the vision is, what's the goal. Like for what purpose does this office or this team exist and why do we do what we do? And more specifically, what is my role within that? How is my work specifically contributing to the fulfillment of this mission or vision or what have you?

Gowin: And so if the work is graded and I'm doing a good job with that, then the praise is appropriate, but if it needs course corrected, then critical feedback is welcome as well. But I think that where that praise comes into play and is particularly valuable for millennials is really in clarifying with them how they are contributing to the greater mission and vision of the office and clarifying that mission and vision if need be.

Pérez: Well, the two of you are definitely inspiring me as I think about my own leadership. And my goal here with the podcast today is that as many deans and directors are actually going to take some time and listen to this. So I'm just wondering if you could share one or two pieces of advice for supervisors of what I'm calling the next generation of professionals, what would you say to them right now? Jonathan?

Gowin: This may sound like the most underwhelming piece of advice ever, but I really think and this I've come to believe in my own reflection over the last several years, leadership takes time. It takes time and it takes investment. And we work in a profession where we're all busy and I know leaders in particular have more meetings than can be counted on their calendars and are in and out of other offices and Zooms almost constantly. But I think for myself, I can't emphasize enough the value of meeting one-on-one regularly with supervisors and getting to know them, getting to know their expectations and their styles and what insights they can provide to me about my own.

Gowin: And this comes up a lot in conversations I have with other folks as well, colleagues around the profession it's I find it somewhat saddening and disappointing how few people report having regular check-ins or one-on-ones with supervisors. And as we move forward, Angel, I think it's critical for leaders to think, using a phrase that you used earlier is that the one size fits all approach is not going to work anymore. And in particular, when it comes to supervising staff. Every conversation needs to be tailored to the needs of that staff member where they are in their life and talking about what inspires them most, and where they can find meaning in the work that they're doing.

Pérez: That resonates deeply with me and it also ties to this notion of authenticity, right? That people want leaders to be their authentic selves and for people to really get to know their leaders. I think now more than ever, you can't be a leader who sits in an office and assume that people know what your vision is, know the direction that you're taking the organization, that it's really important that you develop these one-on-one relationships. What about you Noor? What advice would you give?

Haddad: I think a lot of what Jonathan said resonates with me as well. And I will say over the last five plus years I've been very fortunate to have supervisors and managers that have really invested in my professional development and prioritized it. And that doesn't just mean the professional development I have within my own workspace but outside of that. Some of the most valuable parts of my growth have been through our regional ACAC. I've had so many opportunities to meet incredible people and mentors and people that I now consider friends of mine that pushed me to grow, that allowed me to pursue knowledge in ways that I have yet to do.

Haddad: I didn't have a traditional educational background. I didn't study counseling. My peer parents were both educators and so I always knew that I wanted to be in education, but I didn't have formal training. A lot of my work came from learning from others alongside of me and from my managers investing in the fact that I knew that was going to be important in my growth. And so through WACAC I was fortunate enough to be able to present, to be able to serve on the board with other colleagues from all walks of the college admission profession. And I can't tell you how much I've learned just from those personal conversations.

Haddad: I think one of the conversations from this previous WACAC conference that really resonated with me was in the closing session there were lots of deans and directors on a panel and James Rawlings from The University of California, San Diego really encouraged the idea of us referring to this as a profession and not an industry. And that's really been sitting on my mind ever since he said it because to me, education within itself is your own personal education.

Haddad: And so as many of those opportunities I have to learn, I honestly, I will look up research papers for my own enjoyment. I seek out information because I have a passion about this project. And so one of the things that I really enjoy about my current role is I don't just college counsel. I actually am fortunate enough to be able to sponsor an affinity group on my campus of Middle Eastern students. And that has been one of the most inspiring roles that I've actually had. Even though it takes up so little of my time, I get to speak to students who actually see a faculty member that is a Middle Eastern person.

Haddad: I think for me to serve as a representation in that effect, to be able to represent them in other aspects of the school and allow them to pursue their own understanding of their identity, that connects to so many of the things that I'm passionate about within college counseling. And I would just say really invest in your own employees' professional development, and to speak to Jonathan's point, know that each is individual and they're going to have completely different interests and needs. And so a one size fits all approach is not necessarily going to be the right pathway as you said Angel. I think it's really important to understand everyone's strengths. That's going to make so many leaps and bounds for them in their career and make them want to stay within that profession and within that team.

Pérez: Well, I will say that if you two are the next generation of our profession, I'm good. I could retire tomorrow, because I have good faith that our profession will be in good hands. I always like to end on a really optimistic note, a big part of the reason I do this work is because I'm excited about the future of the profession. I think there's lots of reinvention that lies ahead and your generation will actually carry forth a lot of it. If you were to give some advice to our listeners who are young professionals just entering the field right now, why should they stay?

Gowin: I think the most exciting things for me as I think about the future, they all come down to the fact that higher education is going to change. I think we are at a critical moment for higher education broadly and for the admission profession as well. And so I would say that if there is a good reason to stay in the profession, it is that if you stay it can almost be assured that you will have an active hand in really shaping the way that higher education reinvents itself this century. I think that there are so many crises that are coming to a head very soon. We're still grappling with what online education and remote work mean in the wake of the pandemic. We have yet to solve the cost crisis. We have yet to really fully wrap our lines around the effects of systemic racism in higher education as well.

Gowin: And so there is so much happening right now in higher education that it is an exciting time to be in the work, both in admissions or in other aspects of higher education as well. There's a great opportunity to really be able to shape that. And I encourage folks, especially folks who are just getting started in the profession, to think about what are those issues you care most deeply about, start reading, start learning, and also engage your supervisors as much as possible in sharing those passions.

Gowin: And for those supervisors, listen and think very critically about how can you support this person in that work and in pursuing those things that they care deeply about. That honesty and openness about the things for which you care and for which you're inspired, I think that is going to be the key to a lot of folks staying in the work is feeling like they can express that, they will be heard, and opportunities will be presented where they can move forward with that.

Pérez: Noor?

Haddad: I think what's often the struggle with this profession, with education in general is that it feels so big that you really never know if you're making a contribution. You don't see it because it's going to happen five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now. And if I've seen anything over the last week, I know that each person in this profession is a change maker. And I think for me, I want to see how it turns out. I want to see it through and it's not going to be this big epiphany. I'm not going to be there for that. I understand that about this role, but it's those little moments where someone comes up to you at the end of a session and says, "I felt so heard from that session. I was really glad to hear from you because I don't necessarily see a lot of people like me saying the things that you're saying."

Haddad: It comes from a family telling you, "I feel so much better. I had no idea how to translate all of these things that are seemingly happening to me at one time. I wasn't educated here. I didn't go to college. I had no idea how to support my student." It comes to the student who says, "Wow, I had no idea that field existed," or the student that asks me and sits down with me and says, "I want to understand how to be myself in this admission process." You are the person that is creating that conversation that's being the representation, that is providing support that that family, that student, that colleague wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Haddad: And I think I'm seeing that so often that sometimes it gets lost in the shuffle how much of a contribution you are really going to make over the next several years. And so I really hope that folks see it through. I plan to be here. I'm not going anywhere. So I hope that we get to see the fruits of our labor, but I understand it's going to take some time. And I just hope that some of these amazing colleagues will stick around to see what's to come.

Pérez: Well, I'm delighted that the both of you plan to be here for many years to come. And I hope that our listeners are inspired by your words, that some of our listeners who are next gen are inspired to stay in the profession and that some of their supervisors maybe got a couple of tips of ways to continue to cultivate your wonderful work. So I want to thank Noor and Jonathan for a wonderful conversation today, and thank you to our audience for joining us for this episode.

Pérez: College Admissions Decoded is a podcast from NACAC, the National Association for College Admission Counseling. It is produced by LWC Studios. Kojin Tashiro produced this episode.


CITATION: National Association for College Admission Counseling. “Special Edition: Next Gen Admission Professionals Seek Balance, Values, and Self-Actualization at Work.” NACAC College Admissions Decoded, National Association for College Admissions Counseling, May 17, 2022.