NACAC's David Hawkins and Sean Robins discuss the administration's changes to education policy, including efforts to dismantle the U.S. Department of Education and anti-DEI initiatives, and how these policies impact students, institutions, and the college admission landscape. They also share opportunities and strategies for advocacy. (Recorded on March 18, 2025)
NACAC's David Hawkins and Sean Robins discuss the administration's changes to education policy, including efforts to dismantle the U.S. Department of Education and anti-DEI initiatives, and how these policies impact students, institutions, and the college admission landscape. They also share opportunities and strategies for advocacy. (Recorded on March 18, 2025)
NACAC advocacy and policy updates: https://www.nacacnet.org/advocacy/take-action/
Higher Education Advocacy in Uncertain Times: Navigating Policy Changes in College Admission
NACAC's David Hawkins and Sean Robins discuss the administration's changes to education policy, including efforts to dismantle the U.S. Department of Education and anti-DEI initiatives, and how these policies impact students, institutions, and the college admission landscape. They also share opportunities and strategies for advocacy.
Guest: Sean Robins, Director of Advocacy at NACAC
Host: David Hawkins, Chief Education and Policy Officer at NACAC
David Hawkins: Hello and welcome to the College Admissions Decoded Podcast, an occasional series from the National Association for College Admission Counseling, or NACAC. NACAC is an association of more than 28,000 professionals at high schools, colleges, universities, and nonprofit organizations, as well as independent counselors who support and advise students and families through the college admission process. I'm David Hawkins, chief education and policy officer at NACAC. For the past 25 years, I've had the privilege of working for and alongside college admission counseling professionals and witnessing their dedication to supporting students and shaping the future of our nation.
I'm honored to sit in for our regular host, Eddie Pickett. I'll be joined today by Sean Robbins, NACAC's new director of advocacy. Welcome, Sean. You've picked a heck of a time to join us.
Sean Robins: Yes. Thank you so much, David. It has been an interesting first month here at NACAC, but I am very excited to be here. I've been in education for quite some time. I started off actually as a teacher teaching adult based education courses to individuals that were seeking their GEDs, and then transitioned to supporting students as they transition from college into careers. Then I've been working in education policy all the way from cradle to career and everything in between.
So I'm really excited about the opportunity to be here at NACAC, and it has been a very exciting time to say the least of rollercoaster aspects of what we're having to process. Right now.
David Hawkins: So excited for today's conversation. Terrific. Well, thank you, Sean, and certainly thank you to our listeners for joining us today.
Over the years, we've faced plenty of challenges and celebrated some meaningful victories. All thanks to the passion and commitment of NACAC members and the profession at large. Today, advocacy feels more important than ever, and I'm not just saying that because that was my first role here at the organization.
Policies are changing rapidly and the impact on students, families, and institutions is significant. That's why it's crucial that we equip ourselves with the knowledge and tools to advocate and take action. In this episode, we'll explore some of the latest policy and legislative updates and share strategies to help you confidently advocate for the issues that matter.
So let's jump right in. First, I want to take a high-level approach to policy as it stands here, nearly three months into the new administration and new Congress in Washington. One of the trends that is evident is that this administration and Congress seems intent on shifting away from the federal role in education, which has always been secondary to the state's role.
How is this playing out, Sean, and what are really the principles at stake at this high level?
Sean Robins: So right now we're seeing the new administration working to almost dismantle the Department of Education, which is having a rippling effect. We've seen executive orders that have come in targeting diversity and equity and inclusion programs, and those have been having a really negative impact on students and institutions across the U.S. What we've actually ended up seeing is the February 14th Dear Colleagues letter which almost set a precedent of where the administration is coming from and attacking DEI initiatives and making it difficult for students and institutions to understand what is actually allowed when it comes to DEI initiatives. This is very challenging for states when they're having their specific legislation and laws in place that are some more inclusive, some more restrictive to DEI policies, all of which are affecting higher education and ultimately causing a lot of confusion and uncertainty.
Ultimately, what we're also seeing at the same point in time is that there are organizations and associations that are bringing forth lawsuits against the administration that are challenging these executive orders and anti-DEI efforts. Right now it seems like that is up in the courts to try to figure out how to decide that. So there's going to be more information that we're going to be staying in tune with as that plays out in the courts.
David Hawkins: You raise a good point, Sean. The primary focus, I would say, as we started out with two executive orders, continuing through to a Dear Colleague letter that you mentioned that was really aimed at colleges and universities, and then continuing through a frequently asked questions document, and here we're getting into the weeds.
For those of you who may not follow policy regularly. You know, executive orders, the things that presidents typically issue that dictate policy for their administration and for the agencies that they oversee. I want to make clear the executive branch is not in the position to create new policy as Congress might, is constitutionally assigned to do.
But these executive orders, particularly in the last 50 years, have become an increasingly important part of the executive landscape. You mentioned also, Sean, that this Congress and this administration have been very clear about their intentions to eliminate the Department of Education. And before I pose a question to you about the department, I want to note one of the things that listeners may be hearing is that politicians, certainly those from the Republican party, have been talking about eliminating a couple of things as they try to essentially move the federal government out of education.
One is that they want to end federal control of curriculum, which fundamentally, I just haven't seen to be a reality. States have always controlled their own curricula, and they continue to do so. The other being to eliminate waste and fraud, which granted there is in any entity as large as a of the federal government, there is bound to be waste and fraud in various places.
But what is happening here in Washington is not the elimination of waste and fraud. It is the wholesale elimination of federal agencies, offices, bureaus, even to the point of selling real estate and buildings that these agencies are currently housed in. All this is in the name of attempting to sort of move the federal government out of education.
I wonder, Sean, in terms of what's happening at the Department of Education. Tell us a little bit about that. You know, about what's happened to date, and then also you sent around a chart the other day that showed where the impact of the administration's actions so far is being felt inside the department.
So as you talk about what's happened so far, tell us a little bit about which offices are being affected.
Sean Robins: What we're seeing at the Department of Education right now is a dismantling of the agency itself. By actions of the new Education Secretary Linda McMahon and the Trump administration, we are seeing 50% of every agency, some more than others, some offices within the Department of Education are being completely eliminated. And then also we're seeing that there are seven of the twelve offices for the Department of Education that are ultimately going to be closed. All of that to say that students and institutions are going to have negative impacts when trying to reach out or getting additional support or guidance or even oversight from the federal government and Department of Education.
Ultimately, we're seeing agencies that are supporting even the Office of Federal Student Aid that are going to be impacted as well. The document that I had shared indicated that there are agencies that are being completely wiped out. FSA Federal Student Aid is also being impacted by that, which I find it to be interesting in the fact that the acting undersecretary sent a letter saying that certain agencies are still, certain offices within the Department of Education are not being impacted and that they are still operating as normal, but it is difficult to see that when the very next day that the announcement of the reduction in force came about, that there was the student aid sites and FAFSA access was not available. So already right off the very beginning, we're seeing the impact and it's going to have an even greater, larger impact as well as some of this winds up playing out and we see the actual reduction in force have broader implications.
David Hawkins: That's an excellent point. I'll also note with my somewhat jaded 25 years of experience that when the Department of Education sends a memo that says, everything's going to be fine, these offices are not really affected.
It rings a little bit hollow when the stated intent of, not just the administration, but also the majorities in the House and Senate have said they are going to eliminate the entire Department of Education. So it is a big concern on our part. I know as NACAC that while there may be a moment here where these agencies are still functioning at some level, Sean, you alluded to the fact that the full impact of this could still play out over the next several months. And if the department is eliminated, even if some of these functions like federal student aid are transferred to other agencies within the government, the disruption, as we have told Congress now via letters that we have sent to the to Capitol Hill, that the disruption could be enormous. And of course, we're thinking back to last year's FAFSA rollout.
From my perspective, I'm thinking about something on a much, much larger scale, on an exponential scale as we deal with the challenges that the current administration's policies are creating. Let me go back, Sean, to you. You mentioned the race conscious admission and DEI actions that the administration has taken so far.
I think what's safe to say is that these types of policies, these types of anti-DEI policies that really have been defined by a preoccupation with race, with identity in that way have been. Growing at the state level. There are some states that have years and years of experience in this area. They're just now hitting the federal level.
I wonder if you can spend a little time just talking about what you're seeing first of all, as a result of what the administration has said and done so far, and perhaps maybe give us a taste of what these executive orders, these. Efforts to provide guidance or instruction, which admittedly haven't been very clear what they're actually getting at, what they're trying to do.
Sean Robins: Ultimately, the administration is trying to ban any type of diversity, equity, and inclusion programs throughout the federal governments, and also prohibiting recipients of federal funding from engaging in any type of diversity, equity, inclusion related programming. I want to be sure to say diversity, equity, and inclusion, and not just DEI because those three words are critical. To be anti, any of that just is for me, is baffling.
It's baffling in the sense that we have many pieces of legislation that ensure equal opportunity for everyone. And diversity, equity and inclusion programs overall, whether it is an institution that is upholding them or various different organizations or communities, they are set to help even broaden that equal opportunity and access to students and to all individuals having the stance of anti-DEI.
It is just as EducationCounsel, one of our partners, have stated it's not legal to say that DEI is illegal. All efforts to advance DEI goals are not, as the administration seems to suggest, categorically unlawful. They remain fully consistent with clear federal legal, constitutional, and statutory standards and court rules.
So ultimately, if you had DEI practices in the fall of last year and are continuing through, nothing has changed. The executive orders to what you alluded to are just policy interpretations of current laws from the administration. They are not law or legally binding. And what we're also seeing is that there are many lawsuits that are currently going through the courts, and we'll be going through the appeals process to identify and understand the broader implication of these executive orders and these anti-DEI efforts from the administration.
David Hawkins: I'm glad you mentioned that. DEI is diversity. Equity and inclusion. That's a really critical concept to remember, and I know that the definitions of those terms can often get lost in this highly politicized context. You know, one of the things that I will offer is that in our work here at NACAC, DEI means a lot of different things.
We talk about DEI in the context of certainly race and ethnicity. We include things like gender identity and sexual orientation. We include gender itself. We include students with disabilities, for instance, being an aspect of an audience that needs to be included. That needs to be to have equity in their access to education and resources.
Frankly, we also consider things like income and first-generation college attendance status, and religion. There's all sorts of ways in which diversity manifests itself. But the common thread really that runs through is that everyone, and this is something we firmly believe and have communicated to Congress on multiple occasions.
Everyone deserves a fair chance and an equitable chance to succeed in education, but the reality is that our K12 system, our society in general, is not a terribly equitable place. And I think one thing that's important to underscore as we think about how we're going to advocate as both individuals and as an organization, how we explain to policymakers or other stakeholders that higher education, particularly as we serve students in the transition to college. We're dealing with inputs that are as varied as the students themselves and we know as professionals, and Sean, this is something you and I've told our members now on several occasions since you've started, we know perhaps better than anyone. The differences that we see every single day in the students that come to us, and I think as we think about all of this anti-DEI noise here at the federal level and certainly at the state levels as well, that fundamentally what this is about is making sure that we meet students where they are and we give them every opportunity to succeed.
And that applies to every student that we serve. So I think that's important. Some days I feel like that this is just far too politicized for us to do anything about, but other days I remember that no, everyone experiences things in their own way. And to the extent that we can communicate to policymakers and other stakeholders that what we're trying to do when we say diversity, equity, and inclusion is to just ensure that our radar, that our scanners as professionals are set on maximum sort of openness. That we appreciate that students come to us with very, very different experiences and backgrounds, and that certainly in the admissions process, we want to account for those differences in a way that is equitable for all students.
So I'm going to pivot a little bit here. We've talked a little bit about the DEI, anti-DEI initiatives here in D.C. We've talked about the fact that the administration and Congress are in the process of dismantling the Department of Education, which I should add. Sean, you mentioned there are many, many lawsuits out there.
A lot of them do relate to the changes that have taken place so far at the department. So there is vigorous pushback at NACAC and in other contexts as well. So, time will tell how far this administration is able to go.
Sean Robins: David, to that point too, I also want to clarify that the administration cannot dismantle and say the Department of Education is no more. They can't wave a magic wand and say it's gone. It requires an act of Congress for that to happen, and ultimately it would mean that you would need to have 60 votes within the Senate to overcome any type of filibuster. Which, at this point in time, I don't foresee that happening. So I just want to make that abundantly clear that it has to be an act of Congress for any type of action to take place of dismantling the Department of Education.
David Hawkins: That's right. An excellent point, Sean, and one that actually goes back to the very first topic we discussed, and then I'll pivot into the state context here in a moment. But that is that to listen to the political debate that's happening right now, you one would think that the federal government is essentially micromanaging education at the state level, and that's just not true.
We know that, for instance, 90% of funding for education comes from the state level. We know that curricular decisions. Are made by the states and even the localities. We know that again, around 90% of the appropriations for colleges and universities, if not more, comes from the state level as well as the design and function of their own public post-secondary institutions.
I think the one area where the federal government probably has outsized relevance is in the area, as we've already discussed of federal student aid. When you think about the Pell Grants, you think about student loans, and things like that. The federal government does tend to have more influence in that small area.
But the bottom line for listeners is just that the states really are the drivers of education. So I think it's really important that folks understand that whatever talking points they hear from whoever they hear it, states are already in control. The federal government is not in control of education in this country.
So Sean, before we do get to the state role, when you think about the federal role where there is a strong presence, it is in federal student aid, including grants, as well as the direct loan program. What noises have we heard so far from the president and or Congress about student aid?
Sean Robins: So ultimately, we've seen that there's a pushback from both the administration and Congress of any type of loan forgiveness, which was a big talking point for the Biden administration.
And with the safe plan that the Biden administration had worked to work to try to get passed but now has been caught up in the courts as well. And unfortunately with that, what we're seeing is that it's not just the safe plan, but it's actually cascading to other income contingent based repayment programs.
So right now there's a lot of uncertainty of whether or not there's any type of possible loan forgiveness that students could actually have, even though some of the direct loans or things that they've agreed to state that after X number of years of payments, your loans would be forgiven at that point in time.
That is currently now up in the air. There are conversations on the hill about removing any type of forgiveness overall. Whether or not that will happen is something to be yet determined. It's very concerning to see right now, and especially for students that are looking at going into higher education and are needing to have that additional assistance.
Trying to make that decision whether or not that they would like to or can afford to, is playing into their decisions of whether or not that they could actually pursue higher education at this time. So a lot of things that are up in the air because of these decisions. While they are taking time through the courts to go through, the students that are looking at higher education opportunities are being impacted right now at this very point in time. They can't wait.
So really trying to ensure that there are policies that are helping students and supporting them in their education journey and providing access and equitable opportunities is essential. Instead of creating barriers where there doesn't need to be, let's, we need to try to focus on how we can dismantle barriers and not dismantle the Department of Education.
David Hawkins: That's a terrific point, Sean. I also, when you talk about student loan forgiveness or student loan repayment assistance, I am reminded that one of NACAC's big priorities, in fact I was around at NACAC here when we were advocating for the creation of this program, is the public service loan forgiveness program, known here in Alphabet Soup World as PSLF.
So PSLF is something that frankly, NACAC members have benefited from. We even have a program, a member benefit, here at NACAC where you can get assistance in processing your public service loan forgiveness application. Essentially what it is, is if you work in a public service for 10 years and public service is defined not just as someone that you might think of, like a firefighter or police officer, aid worker, or homeless shelter worker. It's actually any nonprofit. It's education. It's all sorts of different fields. And something I saw just the other day that I need to call out is that I saw a description of PSLF as being a program that benefits certain political constituencies, and the implication being that PSLF tends to lean towards a more democratic constituency. I just had to bust that myth because frankly, the eligibility criteria for PSLF are so broad and includes so many different organizations that it's virtually impossible to say that one or the other of the political parties stands to benefit more because there are so many different people that work in the nonprofit world in education and police and fire and county government, local government work.
So we're definitely watching that when as long as well as with all the other federal aid programs, Sean, that you mentioned, and I think it's worthy of note before we dive right into the state policy issues or policy context that we are very early on in this administration and in this Congress.
Everything that Sean and I are talking about today could change in the next week, two weeks, three weeks. And frankly, as Sean alluded to with the Department of Education, will require Congress to act. And if you've been an observer of Congress over the last decade or two, acting has not been its strong suit.
Though we are prepared. I'm here at NACAC to advocate whenever it is needed. And it is certainly needed now. So, Sean, before we talk about those advocacy efforts of policy and funding for education that are generated at the state level, what might you want to share with our listeners just about the importance of state policy when it comes to education? And perhaps, what are a sample of the issues that a state might be dealing with at this time?
Sean Robins: So states are critical when it comes to funding education and providing guidance in the standards of education within their states. For quite a few states, the majority of the budget, it actually winds up going to education and funding education. So right now what is happening is that the state legislatures are having to contemplate what are ultimately the fallouts from potentially the dismantling of the Department of Education. The way that I like to think of things is that the Department of Education and the federal government role within, they provide funding, oversight, and guidance. What ultimately is a safety net for states and for students.
So, I mean, David, you wouldn't go onto a high wire without a safety net below, if you would go on a high wire, right? So.
David Hawkins: I would not.
Sean Robins: There you go. Right? So, but that, but in terms of things. Having that safety net allows for students with disabilities to have additional supports that they're needed, that it also helps students from low-income communities to have additional resources that otherwise their community or the state are not able to provide.
It also provides different access to opportunities for education with federal student aid. So there are multiple avenues that states are now trying to reel and understand what they're going to have to pick up. And that doesn't even get into the funding for education research and the testing implications that are now being just wiped away almost.
What we wind up seeing is that these communities where the Institute of Higher Education or community college is based, that hub is going to be impacted. And on a broader scale, the implication is not just going to be to the institution itself, not just to the students, but to the community and the economy of that small town or that college town that's right there.
So it's various different policies that are having to, state legislators to have to address, and what's the ultimate fallout of the U.S. backing out of its national commitment to education.
David Hawkins: A critically important point that you raised, Sean, is that a really vital function of the federal government in the past has been to rectify inequities between states.
Uh, if you take the student to counselor ratio, which nationally averages about 385 to 1. 385 students per counselor right now. The national average there masks pretty significant differences between states. So in some states, students will have pretty good access to a counselor, maybe 250 to one, which is the ideal ratio according to the American School Counselors Association. Other states, not so much. We've seen states get close to a thousand students to one. Recently, in the past, there were several states that were over that level. That's just one example of how schools can differ. States can whole states can differ, frankly. Then when you drill down into each state, you see that there are areas that clearly have greater need within the states.
So even state level ratios mask differences between school districts within each state, and that's where the federal government really helped to pave over some of those differences with federal funding. So you take that federal funding away and states are left holding the bag. How do we provide equitable resources for the students in our state when state funding so clearly is not getting there?
So that's a critically important thing, and I think as we move towards our final segment about taking action through NACAC. It's a good time to give a shout out to our affiliate organizations. We have 23 state and regional affiliate ACACs, and each one of them has a committee of dedicated volunteers who serve as government relations chairs and committee members. And we owe a debt of gratitude to them for the time that they put in helping us identify issues at the state level.
Taking action at both the state and the national levels and really serving as our eyes, ears, and communicators on the ground. So Sean, let's talk a little bit right now it feels like a swirl. I mean, you and I are here in it every day. We're professionals in this role, so we're to some degree accustomed to this.
Although this current administration is giving us about as much as we've had at any point in the past. But I can imagine that for our listeners, this must be pretty chaotic. Basically, the message I want to send right off the top is that you can take action. You can take action through NACAC. We're here to help you.
And one of the things that I always say to our members is that you are the experts. Your voice in this is so important because you know what's happening in your setting. You know what problems you're confronted with on a day-to-day basis. And as these developments come out of Washington, your ability to relay those stories becomes critically important to help inform the policymaking process.
So, Sean, given your vantage point and your tenure of an entire month here at NACAC, talk to us a little bit about how members can get engaged through us.
Sean Robins: Well, certainly, I mean, the one thing that members could go through and do, or individuals that are just listening to the podcast as well who are interested in NACAC, is come to our website and check out the resources that we do have.
We are actively updating those resources and policy updates that we are seeing and implications that they have. Additionally, we want to encourage folks to educate yourselves on current policies. So it's also attending and listening to various different events and podcasts such as this. But also being able to really try to take action.
And there are multiple different ways that individuals can do that. But I also want to say that in this, this chaos of uncertainty and gray area of everything, the one thing that I have been trying to reiterate and echo to folks is that in this storm, we at NACAC are trying to be a beacon of lights or a lighthouse to help shine a better path forward.
And how we can actually build that type of community. So by being able to join NACAC, you are able to get access to our advocacy resources and the latest updates that we do have. But in addition, you could go to our website and go to the advocacy page under our take action, and you can see various different aspects of how folks can engage with our action alerts to ultimately contact their own legislatures, whether that's at the state level or even at the federal level, and ultimately get involved, right? As David said, you are the experts, right? The stories that you tell and that you share will have an impact. The experience that I have come across with policymakers is that they do respond to stories more than a list of policy recommendations that we might provide.
So with that, make sure that you're able to share your story with what you're seeing, the impacts that you're seeing, and really elevate that. And that here at NACAC is what we're also. It's going to be trying to do here, specifically me and my role is trying to elevate those stories and how we can really ensure that we're able to support students and support the college access and admissions process overall.
David Hawkins: Thank you, Sean, and I'll say for those of you who are not already following NACAC on social media: LinkedIn and Twitter, or X as it is, I suppose, known, we certainly post updates there to Facebook to the bulletin as well. And Sean has been doing a great job of getting us information about the latest that's coming out of D.C. So be sure to tune into those channels as well.
So that's about all the time we have for today. I want to thank you, Sean. We've got a big job ahead of us, but I'm very confident that we will make every effort to be that lighthouse and to advocate on behalf of our members. Sean, I appreciate you being here today.
Sean Robins: Thank you so much, David. I'm really excited about the position that I'm able to be in here too, to try to help elevate the stories and voices for our members and for students across the U.S. and across the world that are looking to come to a higher education in the U.S. I hope that we can be that beacon of light through the storm that we are enduring.
David Hawkins: Right on. Okay. And thanks to you, our audience. For joining us for another episode, college Admissions Decoded is a podcast from NACAC, the National Association for College Admission Counseling.
It's produced by Resonate Recordings. If you would like to learn more about NACACs mission and the college admission process, visit our website at www.NACACnet.org. That's N-A-C-A-C-N-E-T.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and rate us on your favorite podcast app, and don't forget to subscribe.
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