In honor of National School Counseling Week, we are shining a spotlight on the work of school counselors and the vital role they play in students’ lives. Every day, school counselors make a lasting impact by offering academic advising, providing college counseling, supporting the well-being of their students, and much more. Host Eddie Pickett is joined by NACAC members Jennifer Nuechterlein, Cicily Shaw, Randy Stamm, and Pauline Weber.
Celebrating School Counselors
In honor of National School Counseling Week, we are shining a spotlight on the work of school counselors and the vital role they play in students’ lives. Every day, school counselors make a lasting impact by offering academic advising, providing college counseling, supporting the well-being of their students, and much more. Host Eddie Pickett is joined by NACAC members Jennifer Nuechterlein, Cicily Shaw, Randy Stamm, and Pauline Weber.
Guests: Jennifer Nuechterlein, College & Career Counselor at Hunterdon Central Regional High School, Cicily Shaw, Director of College Counseling at Thayer Academy, Randy Stamm, School Counselor at Hackensack High School, and Pauline Weber, Director of College Counseling and Alumni Advising at Detroit Cristo Rey High School
Host: Eddie Pickett, Senior Associate Dean of Admissions and Director of Recruitment at Pomona College.
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Eddie Pickett: Hello and welcome to the College Admissions Decoded podcast, an occasional series from the National Association for College Admission Counseling or NACAC. NACAC is an association of more than 28,000 professionals at high schools, colleges, universities, and nonprofit organizations. As well as independent counselors who support and advise students and families through the college admission process.
I'm your host, Eddie Pickett, and my pronouns are he, him, his. I'm a long time NACAC member and former member of the NACAC Board of Directors. In my day job, I'm the Senior Associate Dean of Admissions and Director of Recruitment at Pomona College in Claremont, California. Thanks for joining us. In honor of National School Counseling Week, we're shining a spotlight on the work of school counselors and college counselors for the vital role they play in students’ lives.
Every day, school counselors and college counselors make a lasting impact by offering academic advising, providing college counseling, supporting the well being of the students, and so much more. This episode is to celebrate the work that these counselors are doing, to encourage folks to join this very rewarding profession, and to give a little bit of advice to our admissions professionals like myself, who purely see the opposite side, but don't always understand what's happening in the high school.
Let me introduce you to our guests. Welcome Jen Nuechterlein, College and Career Counselor at Hunterdon Central Regional High School and Co-Chair of NACAC's Public School Counselor Special Interest Group. Welcome Jen.
Jennifer Nuechterlein: Thanks for having me.
Eddie Pickett: I'm also happy to welcome Cicely Shaw, Director of College Counseling at Thayer Academy and President of the New England Association for College Admission Counseling.
Welcome Cicely.
Cicily Shaw: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Eddie Pickett: Next, I would like to welcome Randy Stamm, School Counselor at Hackensack High School and immediate past President of the New Jersey Association for College Admission Counseling. Welcome Randy.
Randy Stamm: Hi, glad to be here.
Eddie Pickett: And last but not least, we're joined by Pauline Weber, Director of College Counseling and Alumni Advising at Detroit Cristo Rey High School, who also did me a real solid last year when I was looking for a place to host an event.
Pauline stepped up at the last minute, so I want to say thank you for that publicly because we appreciated it. So welcome to the pod.
Pauline Weber: I'm happy to host you anytime. Thank you for hosting me on the podcast.
Eddie Pickett: All right. Thank you to all our guests. We're going to hop in. As a former high school counselor, you know, this is a space it's near and dear to my heart as well.
And I think that you guys don't always get the light shined on the work that you're doing with students. So we want to make sure that we get to do that and to celebrate this National School Counselor Week as well. So the first question I'll start and we'll kick it to Jen first. Just what inspired you to become a school counselor?
Jennifer Nuechterlein: Well, I have to say, Eddie, I'm probably one of those that falls into a big bucket of us that says I was inspired by a school counselor. I had a really fantastic school counselor. I was born and raised in central Pennsylvania. My school counselor had been at the job for decades, and so he was getting close to retirement.
But like so many incredible school counselors, was really giving his all, all the way to the end. And he really inspired me. I didn't necessarily know leaving high school that I would become a school counselor. I just knew I would be in a helping profession. In an education setting, working with students and that did push me into school counseling.
I did some work in higher education, helping students with transfer counseling. So the passion to help students meet their goals, to find life after high school was always there. And now being two decades into being a school counselor, I couldn't imagine doing anything else. So I give that credit to an incredible school counselor that I was lucky to have.
Pauline Weber: I actually didn't have a school counselor. My high school was brand new when I went there. I actually work at my alma mater. So Detroit Cristo Rey started in 2008. And because we were so new, we did a lot of things for the first time. So when we got to senior year, we still didn't have a school counselor.
And I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have access to people who understood like what it meant to send a transcript, you know, or an early action deadline, supplemental essays. They had no idea, right? I just was being helped by my teachers. And so, I became a counselor again because, or I became a counselor because I was looking for students like me to never go through the same confusion, and I almost felt like I had a loss, like I had opportunities out there that I didn't get to take advantage of because I didn't have someone guiding me, and I was really called to guide students just like me.
I never wanted them to be without. And so when there was a job posting for our college counselor and it had sat empty for a few months. There was just no way I was gonna let it go empty any longer. I had to be that person for those students just like me.
Cicily Shaw: I'll go next. My story is a little different.
I did not have a very encouraging school counselor, unfortunately. But, you know, I did have someone come in kind of at the last minute to take me under their wing, which I'm extremely appreciative of. I'm first generation to college. So in high school, I obviously was thinking I'm going to get a job, make some money.
I wanted to work in health care. So I actually ended up going to school for health care administration. And I remember being a high school student and being a college student saying I would never work at a high school. I am approaching almost 30 years as a school counselor and admissions professional.
But everything I did in college, all of the activities I was involved in, I was a resident assistant, an orientation leader, I was a tour guide. It just made sense. And when I got my first job out of college, I hated it. And I was working in healthcare, and I remember a mentor from my undergrad reached out to me and just checked in to say like, how are you doing?
And I told them that I did not like my job. So he started kind of just walking me through a potential career, like a potential career in admission. And that's kind of how it all started. And I haven't looked back since.
Randy Stamm: Yeah, I actually fall into that similar vein of not really having a school counselor who I connected with, who I even saw many times, maybe three or four times to pick classes over the course of my time in high school.
And then my pathway, I actually did not attend a school counseling program at first. I actually am a trained, licensed clinical social worker. And so I started my career off working in nonprofit mental health care. And ended up being a clinician in a high school based setting and having the opportunity to work with the school counselors and seeing the work that they were doing and the needs that they were fulfilling was totally inspiring to me.
And I was able to go back to school, take a couple extra classes and voila, never look back. So, that's that.
Eddie Pickett: And Randy, with your experience from not really, you know, having so much counseling to now being a counselor, how do you build trust with students? And I'm going to pass that to Pauline next because she's the youngest on this call too.
Randy Stamm: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this question and I think this is going to link with one of the other questions about possible misconceptions about the school counselor role. So I work at a large title one public school. So I have a pretty large caseload, about 270 students across all four grades.
And so when I, if I'm going to be honest, I think that there's two different types of trust. The first one would be for the actual college and academic advising piece. And I think I developed that trust by having knowledge and being able to present workshops and being able to demonstrate the knowledge base that I have.
It's a little bit more tricky to develop trust on the social emotional piece, because I think a lot of folks assume that school counselors know everything about all of their students, that we're having these in depth conversations, that we're meeting with folks five, six, seven, eight times a year, that people are crying in the office all the time.
And that certainly happens, but I don't have that type of rapport with most of my students simply by the nature of the way the day is structured, the nature of my caseload. And so the way that for me, I try to build trust is to be present wherever I can and to really be open and honest with my students when I'm speaking with them, and I bring my authentic self. I think that, you know, I like to say to people, I'm kind of like a fungus.
I kind of grow on you over time. I think that by being and bringing my authentic self really helps students to do the same. And I think that that really helps to break the ice a lot of times and to build that foundation of trust.
Pauline Weber: I might take that fungus thing because that's hilarious and so true. I think for me, with students, it's easiest to start by sharing my own story.
And so, because I am a college counselor or a director now of college counseling at my own high school. I can say when I walk these halls and, you know, when I was here and that helps students kind of sort of, "Oh, she gets it. You know, she had these teachers, she had this kind of rigor." But if I'm trying to give advice to people who don't have that same level of like, oh, I was right in these hallways, or maybe you've moved out of state.
I think that what's worked for me is not doing a lot of talking at all, you know, asking these open-ended questions, leaving a lot of room for silence while students figure it out, and then really like asking clarifying questions. So I found like if a student says, "Oh, I'm, I'm just going to go to community college because I heard this thing about such and such program.", you know, it's, I'm not trying to jump in and immediately tell them what I know always.
I'm always like, "Oh, what did you hear?" Tell me more about that thing you discovered. And I think that sometimes when they feel like they're maybe driving the process a little bit more, uh, it makes it easier for them to open up to my own suggestions because they feel like I've heard them out first. So, especially when I'm having conversations around just like, tell me what your plan is after high school.
It's really like, tell me what options you want to have so I can help you build those options out for yourself. I can help you craft those doors. And when they sort of start to see like, oh, okay, so Miss Weber is on my side for, you know, if I choose to do electrician work or she's on my side, if I choose to be a phlebotomist or she's on my side, if I want to go to an Ivy league, then, they are like, I can do this with her help because she's on my side.
And so it's really just about showing them how much I can understand them wanting to have all the options. And that's really helpful, I think. And it has been, cause yeah, I've only been in this profession for three years, so I still have a lot to learn, but I've found that has been really successful.
Eddie Pickett: Right. As Paulina's talking about asking questions more than talking, all of us started nodding our head like, yep, that's about right. You got to ask a lot of questions and, you know, not have as much to say, which is actually a great thing if you do it well. So I'm going to pass the next one to Cicely to start.
It's just, you know, what's one of those most rewarding moments you've experienced while working with students?
Cicily Shaw: I love this question. One of the most rewarding experiences I've had is working in my previous school, I was the founding director for college counseling, so I got to build the program from the ground up, and I remember kind of getting into the middle school and talking to students, and I had one student who, he would always tell me, I don't think I'm going to go to college, I don't think I'm getting into college, And I'm like, you'll, you'll be fine.
And he's like, “I don't know. I don't think I'm going to get in. I don't think I'm college material”. And I watched him grow into like a young boy, into a young man by the time he graduated. He had a dream of going to Morehouse and, you know, academically was, you know, he struggled a little bit, but I said, you know, let's just put your best foot forward and tell your story.
And you just kind of have to trust the process. You've put everything in that you can, you've done everything that you can. Long story short. ended up getting into Morehouse, graduated, you know, pledged the fraternity that he wanted to since he's been, he's been talking about, um, since middle school. And I still keep in contact with him to this day.
And, you know, when he graduated, he sent me his picture. He just, and it's just so rewarding when you see students from the start, especially when they're doubting themselves and you just be there as a constant for them and just support them and use your own area of expertise to help guide them through the process.
And then you see them get to that place and now he's, you know, off working successful doing his thing, but it's really rewarding when you can watch students who really do doubt themselves and then they become. A great success. So nice.
Eddie Pickett: And before we get to Jen and Randy on that question, you also said that you started a college counseling program. And so for those folks who are in that similar situation, what advice would you give to them?
Cicily Shaw: Network, network, network. I can't tell you. I worked, I started in the college admission side, so I worked. And a college admission office. And while I was traveling, I just developed great relationships with the school counselors.
So when conversations came up about potentially moving to the other side of the desk, and can we shout out people on here? I want to shout out Nancy Bean. Nancy Bean, when I used to visit her in North Carolina, oh my gosh, when I told her I was thinking of moving to the other side of the desk, she gave me, and this is you know, you're getting on a plane.
She gave me this like five-inch three ring binder of materials. And I will never forget that. And she's like, “Here, honey, take this.” And, you know, I had to figure out how to get it in my bag and get it on the plane. But just building those relationships is really important because I knew a lot about college admission, but once I got to the other side of the desk, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know anything about colleges.
I know a lot of people at colleges and I stand next to them at college fairs. But when I was on the other side, I realized I had to do a lot of research and I was able to reach out to those counselors that I had made contacts with. So that was really helpful. So I would say network is in professional development. Those are the top two.
Eddie Pickett: Nancy Bean is a real one. She did something actually very similar for me as I was going from the college side to the high school side. Uh, she's now retired, but actually still keep in contact with her. Love Nancy. Jen, we'll pass it over to you. Just the most rewarding experience that I can talk about Nancy Bean all day.
Jennifer Nuechterlein: Ditto to you guys. She's really an all-star. And just to piggyback off Cicely, this is a very rewarding profession. I like to think that most of us wouldn't be here if we didn't feel some reward. And if we're lucky enough to feel it throughout the year. I mean, I think ultimately this is such a major transition in a young person's life, high school to something.
It's not necessarily college. It could be a career. It could be right into that workforce, right into the military, taking a gap year to figure things out. There's nothing more rewarding than watching students who were nervous about this process from freshman, sophomore year to starting to develop at junior year to like really putting the work in senior year to seeing it happen.
It's just so full circle. But if I could pinpoint a few. I'm at a high school where about 65 percent of our students pursue four-year college. So we're working and we're a large high school. We've got about 600 students in our senior class. So it's a lot of our students going off to four-year colleges and like a lot of high schools, they tend to focus in on the same 50 to 75 schools, you know, in our region or within a couple hours drive, but I'm always trying to help our students see the greater picture, and I'm lucky. You know, our kids do branch out. They matriculate to about 150 different schools a year, but what I find really rewarding is when a student has that trust. We're just talking about trust and building trust, but they trust in me to look at a school they've never heard of.
There's a reason I put that school on your list as a suggestion. I've heard you say things that make it a fit. Just hear me out. Check it out. I know you don't know how to pronounce it, and you might not know where it's in the country where it is, but just give it a chance. And then they go look at it, and they see something interesting, and then the process develops, and they start talking about it with their parents.
The next thing you know, they're making a visit, and then they're making a second visit, and the application's underway, and all of a sudden, they're out at a mid student day. And then they've deposited. And you're like, wait a second. Remember six months ago when you didn't even want to hear me on that school?
And they go, yeah, you know what, Mrs. N, you were right. And it's not about the validation that we may have something to offer to their college list and their process, but it's more the reward for me is just that trust. They trusted me enough to add that into the mix to give it a chance and it does make us feel good to say, hey, you know, behind the scenes, all this work we do in visiting schools and getting professional development, it pays off. Because I do think we do a great job in helping students find the right fit, helping them see outside the box of where everyone is looking and everyone is applying and finding those real hidden gems that might fit them.
So, um, those are some of my favorite stories.
Randy Stamm: Yeah, I would say one of the fairly new events that we've started doing in our school is partnering with our community college, and they essentially called what's called the fast start program. So shout out to Bergen Community College in Paramus, New Jersey.
And so what they do is, they actually come to our high school and give all of the students who would like to, they're able to take their placement test. So that's one less barrier for those students having to get to campus. So they come, they take their placement test with us. They then provide a bus for us to bring students to their campus.
They split them into groups. They go, half the group goes on tour of the campus. And then the other half actually meets with an academic advisor, and they select their classes. So they leave the visit with a schedule in hand. And of course they leave with the bill. To see the students faces because these are often for us many of the students who thought that college was never even on their radar at all.
So to watch them engage, to be able to see them get this glimmer of hope and excitement and enthusiasm, where, you know, cause I think so, so often we're talking about students who are going to four year colleges and celebrating those successes.
For me, I love bringing our students. to our community college and for them to really light up just as much as those students who are getting into those four-year colleges. So really celebrating the journey of every student regardless of what that path looks like I think is always really powerful and incredibly rewarding.
Eddie Pickett: Kudos to Bergen Community College too. They hosted us for two different events. So thank you to them, particularly their honors program with Kelly and Seamus. Those people are just absolutely amazing. So you're working with some good people there, Randy. You also, Randy, you talked about misconceptions a little bit earlier, so we'll start with you and then we'll pass it down the line. Just, you know, what's one misconception about school counseling you wish more people understood?
Randy Stamm: Yeah, as I was saying before, I think that probably one of the biggest misconceptions is for many, just in this, and I'll just speak from my own experience, but I know that this is the case for many of my colleagues as well, that we do not always have the face time with students that administrators or teachers think that we have.
So I will have teachers coming to me saying, “Do you know what's going on with this person?” And oftentimes I've maybe never met the student yet, or I've maybe only met them one or two times, whereas the teacher sees them for 40 minutes every single day. And so the assumption is that I know everything, but unless someone comes and tells me something, I would not necessarily know that piece of information.
I think another misconception, especially I identify as being a school counselor generalist. So I would say that the college admission process and all those things takes out about 25 percent of my time where I'm doing a whole slew of other tasks. And I don't think that many of my colleagues and those in education at large understand the breadth and scope of what school counselors do on a day-to-day basis, how literally every single period, every single half period, could be totally, totally different and how that can take an emotional toll on the counselor.
Really we might have, I've had days where I've sat with a student and they've been accepted to their number one college. That student leaves my office and the next person who comes in just lost a family member. Or lost a pet, or someone's home has burned down, or someone is looking, a parent is coming in to modify or wants to know how to be able to help their student get an IEP, or whatever the day might bring. So literally, the ability to shift and pivot, I think folks may not realize just how much we are doing that on a day-to-day basis.
Pauline Weber: Just to summarize, like what Randy is saying, I had somebody tell me, again, I'm only three years into the profession, but I had someone tell me.
Eddie Pickett: Don't downplay your experience, it's okay.
Pauline Weber: Thank you. I won't, but I just want to like put that out there for anybody who's listening, that even in that short amount of time, I had a teacher who was looking to retire say, “Oh, I want to be a college counselor. It sounds like so much fun. It sounds so easy.”
And I really had to restrain my anger because just as Randy is saying, it's so complicated. And even though my job is fully focused on the college counseling and the alumni advising, and so I don't have to have dual roles. I don't wear multiple hats. There are so many nuanced and complex tasks that go into even just the college counseling that a lot of us do, that when someone diminishes it to, it sounds so fun and so easy because it is so rewarding, it feels like you've been hit, you know, almost like attacked personally.
And so I think a big misconception is that because it is fun, it is easy. And I don't think that those two things exist in this at the same time. In this particular role, it's fun because you have to work really hard for it.
Cicily Shaw: And I'll just piggyback on that because I actually have, that's my answer, is that “Oh, your job is so easy and you have the summers off. Oh my gosh, that's great.”
Like, oh my gosh, uh, and then once applications are out, teachers will say, “Oh, you guys must have so much free time now.” There is no free time during the school year, and even in the summer, because students do email over the summer and ask for support during the summer, even though I, you know, our office is not open.
We are open and we are definitely on our emails and meeting with families. But yeah, that easy comment. It is not an easy task and it's mentally draining. It may not be a physical job, but there are days that you come home and you're just exhausted and you don't feel like talking to anybody because you've talked all day, or you had so many meetings back to back.
Eddie Pickett: And we're going to hop into that college piece just a little more as well. So one for your current place and then we're going to start giving some advice to admissions officers because I noticed for myself as I left the high school side to come back to admissions, I became such a better admissions officer.
We're going to head there in a second, but just one last question about your current space is just what is one piece of advice about the college admissions process or the college search in general to find yourself giving out repeatedly to either students and or parents? And why is that important?
Jennifer Nuechterlein: I'd love to take this one, Eddie.
Um, I, I think there's so much data. There is so much data around this process. I'm into it. You know, I enjoy evaluating data so that I can best serve my students and provide data driven programs. So we use numbers a lot. And I think there's a lot of numbers around how many applications, how many acceptances, how much money did you receive?
So there's just so much centered around numbers and data and statistics. But I try to peel that back and get to the root of this. And so I'd say that the biggest push I make with students, the biggest piece of advice I give them and their parents is that you ultimately have to go where you fit. And I know I'm sure my colleagues all nodding here behind the scenes and everybody knows that.
But truly, the premise behind all the programming we do at my school and the professional development that I'm fortunate to be able to provide to newer counselors is you have to push fit, social fit, financial fit, academic fit. There's so many dimensions of fit that take so much more priority over how many apps, how many acceptances, how many merit offers.
This ultimately won't be successful for you if you don't go to a school that that measures up against all those dimensions of fit. And it's tricky. I mean, I don't expect students to figure out their fit overnight. It is a process that evolves. I think their fit evolves even more once they're on campus and they grow through this process as college students or even as post secondary students navigating their first career.
I talk about fit in all of my presentations. I just spent a week with my entire junior class, all 575 of them. And we talked fit extensively. This is not about a ranking. This is not about a prestige or a brand name or showing anything off. This truly has to come down to where you fit. Cause that's where you're going to feel belonging.
It's where you're going to be successful. It's where you're hopefully going to graduate from and be proud to call your alma mater. So, we really spend a lot of time teaching what fit is and how to best identify what a student's best fit is as they're navigating this process.
Cicily Shaw: A piece of advice I would give families is to really embrace the process.
A lot of times, students come into this process thinking this is something they need to, like, conquer. But really, it's an opportunity, to me, I think it's an opportunity for students to learn about themselves. And learn about their own story and what they want to share with colleges that it's not something to be conquered.
It's an experience to be embraced and that they should really enjoy it. I think a lot of students think of it as this like arduous, like, oh, my gosh, anxiety provoking process when it doesn't have to be if they approach it in a different kind of way that has been presented to them. So I try to shift the mindset a little bit that this is an opportunity for you to really Learn about yourself and to share your story with folks who really are interested in reading about it.
Randy Stamm: So I have just some real quick things that I often say to students. Number one, spell your name right. When I see how many applications come through and their name is spelled wrong, I'm like, oh, Lord, you know, so make sure that you spell your name right. I wish I didn't have to give that advice as much as I do.
Yet here we are, and the other one that I often say to students and families is don't go rogue. You have folks who are here to support you. I always ask my students, “How many times have you gone through this process?” And almost always, the students will say, “I've never gone through this process.” And I said, great.
So every question, so I expect for you to have questions. I expect for you to not know the answers to things just because a relative or a friend or your brother or your girlfriend or your boyfriend or your boyfriend's girlfriend. Whatever it is, just because they have gone through this process doesn't mean that you have gone through the process and what it is that you experience is going to be different from anyone else because you are a unique individual and similar to what others have said, that it's, it's so individualized for what is going to work best for that particular student in that particular time.
So I always encourage folks take advantage of the resources that you have that are available to you and don't go rogue. My students definitely have heard me say that several times, I'd spell your name right.
Pauline Weber: I think one of the biggest pieces of advice that I give to my students, cause Detroit actually has like quite a few colleges and universities pretty close to like just our downtown area, so you can really easily stay at home and become a commuter.
I actually encourage them to live on campus a lot, you know, so it's, if it's affordable, if you get a scholarship, if your tuition is covered and you can afford that cost of room and board, please stay on campus, just because oftentimes for my population. of students, which are typically Latino, first gen kids, they're sometimes first gen Americans, like they've got siblings at home, they've got family responsibilities, they've got a job, again, boyfriend, girlfriend, like they've got things at home that are hard to navigate when you're also navigating college as a first gen college student, sometimes as a first gen high school graduate.
And so I try to encourage them as much as possible, like please stay on campus if you can afford it, if it's an affordable option for you. Please consider it because oftentimes I get kids in my office who are like, I'm just going to go down the street. Why would I ever live on campus? And I again, give them a lot of them.
I give my own story too. And I got to live on campus for my first year. And when I got married recently, all the people I lived with in my dorms, like they were the ones that were standing up next to me at my wedding. It's a really big deal. And it means a lot. And I. I was a 12 minute commute from home when I stayed in the dorm, so I think that's the biggest piece of advice for me is please try, especially as a first gen kid.
Eddie Pickett: Oh, congrats on the wedding, too. I just heard that's new, so congrats.
Pauline Weber: Thank you so much, yeah.
Eddie Pickett: I think from my advice is just learn something about yourself. Like, all these colleges are going to ask you questions you've never really thought about. thought about. And so while you're answering these questions, instead of just answering the questions, learn something about yourself.
Like, you know, you should be a lifelong learner and you, for me, I want to learn something new every single day and I try to impart that on the students that I was working with as well. So that was my advice all the time. We're going to switch it up to the college side just a little bit and just, what's one thing that you would change about the college admissions process?
And we'll start with you, Cicely, first.
Cicily Shaw: I'm laughing. I said financial aid hard stop is one thing, just breaking down the barrier. I mean, we could get into the number of applications that some colleges receive and how competitive it is. But I think honestly, I've seen heartbreak where students get in, they get into their schools, but then they can't afford it.
So I would say financial aid is definitely one piece I would love to change. If I become a billionaire, I will try to solve that. Not sure that's going to happen on a school counselor.
Randy Stamm: I would hop in and say, if I, well, first off, you can become a billionaire, it would not be on the salary, but you can always, you know, you can, it can happen Cicely, I believe in you.
But I think that one thing I would change is this fuzziness around test optional. Just be clear, be very clear, be forthright, be upfront. If you're test optional, state that. If you're test optional, but, you know, we really want you to submit things. Just say that you want people to submit test scores. So just for there to be a real clear statement about what is expected, what is actually helpful, and if at all possible, becoming test free, that would just be if I could.
Wave my magic wand, that would probably be one thing that I would hope for, but in spite of that, I would say just be as clear as possible and as consistent in your messaging to make sure that the reps who are coming to school are saying the same thing that's on the college's website, making sure that there's consistency in marketing, that there's consistency in information, that tour guides have the same information that the admission counselor is giving, that's the same thing that's on the website, so that way there's clear, concise messaging.
Jennifer Nuechterlein: And I'll echo all of that, but I go back to the very basics is that to simply apply to college should not be so demanding. I mean, we are talking about 17 and 18 year olds, sometimes younger, who have never done this before and should be able to approach this process with ease.
Access to higher education is not that accessible in so many ways. I mean, we're breaking down financially. We're talking about messaging, but let's just get them an application in their hands that they can seamlessly submit. That right there, after two decades of studying this process, has probably has me the most frustrated and, and I spell out how to do this process.
My students at my high school will laugh and, Oh, Mrs. Nectar line, step by step guides. I have to break it down because it has become so nuanced and. Such a logistical nightmare truly for students, let alone students who don't have access to a counselor who don't have access to parental support or any support are navigating a brand new process on their own and the loopholes and the barriers and the challenges that have been put into place by so many entities, sometimes by colleges, sometimes by third party companies, application software platforms.
This has gotten crazy. I wish we had more opportunity to talk on a more universal landscape about little things like how to report grades. If we're going to allow self reporting of grades to make things easier for the admission office, then let's do it all on the same platform and not have six different ways to do it.
If we're gonna send out mid year transcripts, let's respect the fact that we are, you know, a large country, a large world, and everybody's on a different schedule. So demanding a mid year transcript, because we're living that, you know, right now, three weeks before my mid year point is just absurd.
Threatening students that we're going to drop them at the end of the year because they don't have a final transcript submitted three weeks before they even graduate is absurd. So it kind of goes back to Randy's comment. Messaging is super important. And I. I think we need to get more universal. And as someone who works closely with a lot of people in admission, and I'm, I'm very privileged to serve on many advisory boards, I spent today on the phone with half a dozen admission colleagues talking about my students applications, voicing opinions and concerns about processes being challenging.
And yes, we hear you. Yes. But there's so many barriers they have to make those changes happen. So I feel like we get stuck in a rut. Of this same conversation every year. We see it on our different platforms. We're talking about these things, but we have to simply make it more streamlined and easier for students to apply to college.
And with that, I just want to give kudos to a group that has evolved so beautifully over the decades, and I truly think has hit the mark. And that's the common app. I will continue to be a great fan of it. Um, I think they do a tremendous job in encompassing a lot into their application, and I am a huge fan of those who join and make applying to college easier through this, this one main platform.
Pauline Weber: I won't add too much because everyone's already said it. I think a lot of that stuff is really similar for my take, and if I could say anything again, it's just, yeah, the complexity and the level of competition that students now feel like they have to get into to apply to. College and be a competitive app, the fact that we say a competitive applicant when there are, you know, over 4000 colleges and universities in the United States, like there should be plenty of spots for kids to go into higher education and to pursue their dreams.
But I do feel like oftentimes a lot of students are starting. behind the start line if they're not preparing for middle school, and I don't know how to change that. I just don't like that it exists because when I end up getting students in my chair and they've heard of those top 50 colleges or those top 100 colleges, it's far too late for them to be your quote, competitive applicant.
And at that point, it's like, now I have to give you the disappointing news that if you weren't training for this from the time that you were four, then you're not getting into one of those top 50 schools or those top 100 schools. And that's really heartbreaking for them because maybe they have started working really hard in high school.
Maybe they have been dreaming about whatever that school is for the last few years. And now they feel in their hearts that they're settling for something local or something close by because, oh, I'm not good enough. And so I think it's really difficult and I don't know what that looks like, but I know that there are schools out there that are in those top 50 spots or are in those top 100 spots that are trying to find ways to access students who didn't know about them.
And so I want to lift up like if you are a president of a university and you want to do some real good, figure out how to. Get access, right? How to gain access to a whole slew of kids who are incredible, but they just didn't know about you when they were four years old.
Eddie Pickett: So coming out of the college space just a little bit, but also still in this, because, you know, relationships matter so much in this profession, you know, whether it's with your admissions colleagues, it's with your students, it's just with your colleagues on campus, you know, there's so many different types of relationships.
So can each of you tell me how do you manage so many relationships and connections with the students, parents, administrators, admissions officers?
Pauline Weber: I'll keep this really short. I just love people, which is one of the reasons why I got into this career. And so for me, it's really simple. It's just keeping a log of who I'm working with in a year.
So it's either digital or paper, typically it's paper. And I just try to write down things that they tell me when I'm having conversations. So even if I'm walking through the school building, I'll have like a notepad. And so as I'm talking to administrators, or I'm talking to students in the hallways, or I'm talking to my fellow colleagues, you know, in the college counseling office, I'm just trying to keep track of things people say, and then I'll just go back and review. So oftentimes it's either a digital format where I'm writing notes down, keeping emails logged or I'm actually scratching down a note on a piece of paper just to keep track of all the conversations I'm having and I love having them so it doesn't feel like work.
Randy Stamm: I would say that one of the things that school counselors can really do in this space, I like to think of our school counseling office as kind of like the heartbeat of our school. We have students who come in to complain about teachers, students complain about parents, student complain about administration, administration complain about parents to us, parents complain about administrators, parents complain about students, admin complains about students, admin complains about teachers.
So like, there's a lot of different dynamics of people who are expressing their concerns. And I think that where school counselors really thrive is our ability to listen with empathy, to listen with an eye towards the bigger picture, to kind of see how all of these pieces fit together, because even though we might be sitting in one of those meetings where someone is really, really connected.
Digging in on, on one person or one aspect of this process, we might have more information about a larger system that's at play, or we might have larger context. So I always encourage folks when engaging with all of these different relationships to not just think about the relationship that you have with whoever you're directly in front of that you're speaking to.
But yeah. Sort of the ecosystem of all the different relationships that are there and really trying to understand multiple perspectives, because usually that's where we get the fullest picture is when we really start to understand all the different perspectives and what's the theme that kind of wraps between all of those different, often competing, perspectives.
Jennifer Nuechterlein: Randy brought up a couple really good points, but the theme I take away from that is, is how I would respond to this, Eddie. And that's, it's listening. I mean, sometimes students come in and they think this problem is just so massive. It's, they missed, they messed something up on the application, or they communicated in a way they didn't want to with a school, or they missed a deadline, and truthfully, I find they just want to be heard.
They just want someone to listen because perhaps someone maybe isn't listening at home or in the classroom or at the lunch table or in the locker room. They just want someone to hear them. And so when you sit with them and can give them a couple minutes, sometimes longer, as we know in school counseling, we can have students who do take good chunks of our time.
They just want to be heard. And sometimes at the end, you just simply offer, it's okay. You're going to be fine. And here's how we're going to work on this. And we're going to make this better. And I tend to try to put the student in charge of making it better to give them a few lessons learned. But I find so much of it is they just want to be heard.
And that goes with parents. That goes with teachers coming down our hall or into our suite or just wanting to vent about a student or a practice or a policy. I think everyone just wants to be heard. And with that, I want to remind my colleagues in school counseling to make sure you are heard. Allowing yourself to be heard, whether it's with a good, close, trusted colleague or speaking with a professional that just can hear you because we do get, I'll just be really transparent.
We kind of get dumped on. There's a lot coming on school counselors, the department, like Randy said, it's a heartbeat, but it can be a little bit of a dumping ground too. I say that in a polite, kindhearted way that we need to take our breaks too. It's a very dynamic and fluid day. I, today I was on the phone with a VP of enrollment talking about students and trends, had a junior walk in my office, a parent call and a senior walk in my office.
And the way you've got to switch those hats so quickly to cater to those different audiences makes this profession, it's like we never sleep. We never stop. It's always, we're always on. And I think that's incredibly special about the work we do.
Cicily Shaw: The way I manage relationships with the various groups, students, parents, administrators, is to go into their space.
I find a lot of unofficial conversations happen at the lunch table, and it actually helps because they're able to ask questions and maybe dispel some myths about what's happening. Students just going into their spaces, right? Making sure that you're present so that when you are having those meetings, those college counseling meetings, it's an organic conversation because you've been to their play like, oh my gosh, you were amazing in that musical or great job playing that game yesterday with administration.
This is something that I'm, especially as a director of a program, making sure, like you said, Jen, that your voice is heard and kind of putting yourself into spaces, which could, you know, be great. Could be good. It could be bad. But putting yourself in those spaces where administrators are. And if you have an opportunity to be a part of the administrative team, that also helps because then you are at the table and you're making sure that those voices are heard.
And then with parents, just making sure that you're at the different events where parents see you outside of just you sitting in your office. I think it's really important that they see you and that you're engaged in the community. community that you're a part of, and then it helps to really manage those expectations that parents have.
Eddie Pickett: The last question to wrap up is just going to be on advice. I think I got some really good advice from my wife who had done student services and academic advising before I went to the high school side, and she said, always have tissue in your office. I did until I didn't, and then the one time I didn't, two months in, this kid comes in and starts talking about his essay, and he starts crying, and Joe, your essay was one hell of an essay, I still remember all the details to this day.
But I remember him crying in my office, and it was like a really good cry, he really needed that, but I didn't have tissue, so I had to run around to get some napkins out of the bathroom to come back, so, always have tissue is the advice I was given. Um, but to all of you, thinking about this space, you know, there's people who, you know, like Jen, who had a great high school, School counselor Sicily who had a, you know, a little bit of a relationship, and then Pauline who had none.
For those people who are either thinking about, you know, going into the profession or maybe they didn't even think about going into the profession, didn't know it existed, what advice would you give them, uh, about the school counseling career or the college counseling career, or just to new people who are starting this career as well?
And so, Pauline, we'll start with you and then we'll go down the line.
Pauline Weber: Have snacks in your office. Always. And we have said it once and we'll say it again till we're all blue in the face. You need to shut your mouth and listen, because it's really vital stuff that's coming through. So, have a snack, you eat the snack, and let the kid do the talking.
Randy Stamm: I would say get involved in your local affiliate, any professional associations, learn as much as you can, and always know that there is something new to learn, that we are in a, a field that is ever changing and to embrace that, to really embrace change and fight that change when needed and to really be an advocate for students.
Jennifer Nuechterlein: This is a very evolving profession. I mean, it's so different than it was five years ago before our pandemic. Ten years ago. 20 years ago when I began, I would be ready for anything. It really is. It's incredibly dynamic and rewarding field. And most importantly, I would be prepared to work. I mean, we, we work hard.
If you are not willing to put in the work and I will say it, the blood, sweat and tears, there's a lot to this profession, but. Be ready to put the work in because the world is changing. Teenagers are very different than they were years ago, and we've got to keep up with them to do our roles and to do them well.
And outside of that, I would really practice your multitasking skills because we are throwing a lot of different things. throughout the day, coming from a lot of different people and a lot of different topics. You don't have to know it all, and it's okay to own that you don't know it all and to refer out to other experts when you don't know it all.
But multitasking is, I believe, truly essential in this field, and you know pretty quickly into your first school counseling role, okay, I either got this or I'm gonna have to really work on my organization to make this successful. But I think we're all here and thousands of us are doing this work because it truly is rewarding.
Cicily Shaw: And I would say, I would second Randy on professional development. Get involved with your local affiliate, get involved. But I would also say for a new school counselor to try not to take things personal. You know, I've learned that. Families are, emotions are high in this process, and sometimes parents and students say things that really can hurt your feelings, and you're working like night and day trying to help families, but it's emotionally driven.
So try not to take it personal. And then for those that maybe Have worked in admission and are moving to the other side of the desk and have a lot of experience. Don't get too comfortable in your knowledge and in who you are as a counselor. Like, I think you need to always be on your toes is what I'm saying, because it is always changing and you can always learn something new.
Every year I learned something. I learned many things, many new things every single year, and I've been doing this for a while. So that would be my advice. I'm
Eddie Pickett: I’m afraid that's all the time we have today. Thanks to our guests Jennifer, Cicely, Randy, and Pauline for a wonderful conversation. And I also want to thank you for the work that you're doing, for the four of you, and for all the school and college counselors out there.
You truly are making an impact in students’ lives. If they thank you or not, I want you to know from the admissions office side that we appreciate your work. And to the people who are going into the profession, it's a lovely time. And so for all of you, just thank you. And I hope you continue to enjoy this career and this profession and continue to inspire young minds.
And with that, I'll leave you with this. Happy National School Counselor Week, everyone. And thanks to you, our audience and friends, for joining for another great episode. College Admissions Decoded is a podcast of NACAC, the National Association for College Admission Counseling. It is produced by Resonate Recordings.
If you'd like to learn more about NACAC's mission and the college admissions process, visit our website at www.nacacnet. org. That's N A C A C N E T dot O R G. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and rate us on your favorite podcast app. And don't forget to subscribe. See you next time on College Admissions Decoded.
CITATION: “Celebrating School Counselors”, NACAC College Admissions Decoded, National Association for College Admissions Counseling, February 3, 2025.